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Time for Jason, JT, Dave, and Shannon to chime back in here. They are the few who have DRIVEN fast almost all of the suspension systems out there. Remember this is the Gett'in it thread...which does NOT include turning wheels 45'.

Those with independents have to limit turning to substantially less than that.

I am not sure if this is true about TTB, but it seems like you could VERY easily go for a dryer ride with 45 'lock and full droop from a small jump or drop off.

Reflection from The Hammers. Straight axle Jason and independent Shannon were swapping the leads. There wasn't too much given up between them. The Jason team flunking Boy Scout knot tying may have been the only difference. Shannon was obviously flying at the rocks, counting on suspension soaking, minimizing turning thus the two flats. Tony wasn't far behind either but had an almost flawless ride and generally picking his way through. Probably too soon to tell about the Torchmate TTB. The straight desert shock testing looked promising. JT commented that it is back in the shop to minimize some of the rear travel (27"? Dropoffs?) That will be a good one to watch as the TTB may apply more to cone comp/trail rigs that want the 45' turn.
 

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Don't forget that Shannon had a damaged driveshaft and couldn't run at full speed, worried that he might tear something up due to the vibration.

Not putting Sheerer down at all, his car is badass and he is one of the guys that can drive at speed and has proven it.
 

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Sounds like they both had other issues. Jason got passed by Shannon once, maybe twice changing a fan belt. It takes more than just a driver.....A compliment to most of the successful KOH drivers.....
 

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bump for an update I know we still don't know what is best for ultra 4 races. Things have probably changed a little since geometry was first talked about in this thread, considering at that point we were still curious about 2.0 air shocks ect.

but it seems like this year most of the races have less rocks and more jumps(short course type stuff)

so really low anti squat? 100% anti squat?

also seems like lately a lot of guys have been ditching there panhards and running 4 link front.


also dual triangulated 4 links don't seem to be around and a lot of the ones that are
have a lot of horizontal separation on the upper link axle mounts


so triangulated lowers?

triangulated uppers?

happy medium

seems to me like you'd want some triangulation on the lowers for obstacles like back door and other big climbs.
 

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AS is overrated. Panhards are probably being ditched as the axle moves left and right as they travel, not ideal for fast stuff but can work.

I would think dual triangulated is the best, not sure why it's not being run, people don't care, don't know, or they don't fit?
 

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I just Re-read this thread.. Some of the new suspensions are testing the rest of the rig again!


i was hoping you'd come back to this thread.. i have really enjoyed alot of your post lots of tech/ knowledge in your post not stuff pulled out of your ass !

im young and wanta learn but its hard to learn when everyone is saying something different.
 

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well no one has pitched in .. i know i wont really be getting it but i will be trying.. lexus 4.0 v8 .. few little things maybe 290 hp? but when i turbo it my motor will be able to get it and i want my suspension to be able to keep up.

so this is what i think i can fit in the front

rough estimate on weight and cg height











anyone see anything horribly wrong? I worry that thats not enough triangulation to keep the axle under the rig..also not much vertical separation
 

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zukijames;14502674) I have really enjoyed alot of your post lots of tech/ knowledge in your post not stuff pulled out of your ass ! [/QUOTE said:
Ha!. I am trying to "figure it out" right along with you! I have been having fun with offroading since the 70's. International offroad MC riding and then Jeeps. Offroading teaches the engineer that it is OK to re-invent. Lately, I have just been able to take video and ask questions of a few guys who should know, and try to make some sense out of it. Most of the drivers know what doesn't work. They apply that learning to the next "better build." There is one hell of a lot of talent on Pirate if you can get them talking, sending you in the right direction for more info, and trying to figure it out. You will notice that I usually ask a question at the end of what I may think is happening. I try to explain how I came to a thought instead of just giving the thought. That gives the real experts (someone who has actually done/experienced it) a chance to chime in. We all learn.

Personally, I have been working on a "Street Legal Jeep" build for 15 years. Think about how the offroad thing has changed in that time. I had everything figured out, but then guys started lifting, and tires got bigger. I want a sand/trail jeep that keeps up with the best of both. Up and bigger was not going where I wanted. Then guys started lowering their rides, and running more droop than compression. Things started back my way, and I picked up with some rock crawlers that wanted to go fast. Then KOH. Then even more suspension tricks with new parts technology. Awesome.

So now in the interest of suspension, I have given up on the sub 2k pound "Jeep", $1k alum mod44 IRS, $1k alum mod44 SUA, for another 1-2k pounds and 30x the price suspension. My bone yard includes 3 sets of brand new R&P's, 2 sets of 15" special built wheels, 1 new set of sand tires, a new set of 35's", and lots of outer axle stuff. I bet I have 2 tons of alum chunks in the garage purchased for hubs, axle tubes, links, arms, x members, body, etc. etc.

I can say that I have not done it right....But it DOES make me feel better if I can convince myself that it is OK to just S'Can a few months/years work...and $$$$$$$.

Everyone is trying to do and justify the same, and is fun as hell! (??)

I only hope to get something done, finished, fun on the trails, and fast in the dunes before something like electric motors take over.....LOL

SO NOW: DOUBLE TRIANGLE FRONT OR IFS with a front radiator/front engine????? ($5-10k vs $15-40k) ......and pro-dive, anti-dive, caster/camber gain, kick, travel, diff clearance, hydro, power rack, bell crank steering, .........???

I have a line on a 2k lb slab of 2 3/4" aluminum that I can make A-arms or links out of. Should I buy it? :grinpimp:
 

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Discussion Starter #157
Enough time has passed since this thread was created that some great tech could come back into this thread of what we have learned.

Talking about specific suspension setup numbers is difficult. I initially threw out some numbers to help get a discussion started, but tried to help keep the conversation past that discussing theory...

It's extremely hard to get people that "know" to talk. In fact, some of them are under contract not to talk. Sharing your specific design that you are kicking everyones ass with opens you up to competition:grinpimp:

Discussing the the theory of how you did your design work or what you were trying to achieve in the design with the reasoning behind it, gives room for people that "know" to chime in and contribute with additional ideas or experiences that help guide us all to better designs.


If this becomes a "check my numbers thread" it will surely die quickly..

If Jason, or some of the guys that have stuff that is working great want to post some actual numbers, we will all be going fast as soon as we get the sawsaw out and modify our junk:flipoff2: More than that, we could anylize the setup and try to see what it is that is making that design work to better educate us all as to what we might be designing toward... then take those principles and apply them to your own design.

-Tim
 

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thanks for posting up!

sorry i didnt mean to take away from the thread by posting my numbers.. just cant get any insight anywhere else and thought the knowledge on this thread would enjoy picking it apart but got nothing..



im very curious where people are drawing the line on low anti dive to go faster throught the rough stuff.. but then having enough to make it so you dont loose it everytime you brake


am i wasting my time trying to get good number?

it was mentioned that suspension should be tuned in shocks not geometry..

while i dont agree with that i see the theory..

take two identical rigs with the same numbers.. and valve differently with different spring rates.. they will have completely different results..

on my build i didnt want the lowers triangulated to much.. ( i think too much triangulation makes more body roll)

but now everyone runs sway bars so does it even matter or can you just fix it with a sway bar?





whos running there lower links in the negative? that way the axle could go up and back kinda like why they rake back the IFS stuff .

or would it be to hard to build in enough anti dive/tune ?


i under stand most of the big names cant get on here and tell us what they are doing.. Although there is a few i could see telling if they were allowed to..just because they love competition!


Also with the way ultra 4 course is going more dirt less rocks .. except the hammers.. how long do you think solid axles will be able to hang around?
 

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also .. lower links above axle centerline.. some love it .. some hate it..

i think for getting it it makes it easier to keep your link flat and still get it up high.

all i can see is good from that .. yet some people are very against it..

i would think everyone racing koh would have them like that.

yes you have to build your upper links up higher to get vertical separation . but isnt having your upper links higher a good thing?
 

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I bought a chassis and collecting parts. By October I should be into building.
issues I am concerned with is steep hills without a suck down winch (will probably have one though) Off camber stuff and cornering without the buggy having tons of body roll.
This thread has given me a headache so off to drinking beer :)
 
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