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Tube inserts......

1509 Views 23 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  mudddog91
At the bottom of this article, this guy turns down some threaded couplers....is this an acceptable way to make these adapters? Will they hold up? What says you PBB?

http://www.offroadfabnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1102
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This guy? Even though you don't know me that sounds weird for me to read.

I too am curious however, nobody would answer me over there.
I made mine that way from 1.125" left and right coupling nuts. I bought grade B7 nuts, which are probably tougher than you average mild steel tube insert, but in the end I spent a lot more doing things this way than I would have spent just buying taps...

Later,
Jason
Its pretty lame if you ask me. If you have access to a lathe, do it right and buy the tap and drill you need and make them right.
Funkel said:
Its pretty lame if you ask me. If you have access to a lathe, do it right and buy the tap and drill you need and make them right.
Why is it lame, it is no different than buying threaded inserts, and you cannot drill out and tap tube that is bigger than your thread size, physics does not allow it. If you used smaller ID tube you can drill and thread it, but if you want something larger and dont want to buy like 3/4 wall DOM, then it makes perfect sense to use a tube insert. You could just as easily bore, turn and thread inserts from solid cold rolled, but what difference does it make? Plus, you dont need a large lathe to make inserts or turn down coupling nuts, and you need a pretty big fucker to chuck up and thread a 3-4 foot long piece of DOM.

Later,
Jason
Funkel said:
Its pretty lame if you ask me. If you have access to a lathe, do it right and buy the tap and drill you need and make them right.
Lame, huh.........I have the tap and drill and the lathe.......but I am not asking about doing it that way. I'm asking, does it save time and is it acceptable to use the threaded couplers versus using bar stock to make these adapters? If you can get the couplers in the same material as solid it makes sense to me to save time and money on tooling to buy it already threaded. I just want to know if anyone has done it and how has it held up? I know I can go out here and turn em out of 17-7ph stainless heat treated to 220,000 ksi but for you LAME-O guy, this is not what I'm asking........ lets not reinvent the wheel......if you think its a bad idea just say so.......I don't think its right or wrong....:shaking:
Wicked_S10 said:
I made mine that way from 1.125" left and right coupling nuts. I bought grade B7 nuts, which are probably tougher than you average mild steel tube insert, but in the end I spent a lot more doing things this way than I would have spent just buying taps...

Later,
Jason

Have you got any pics of the in-process inserts?
Sorry, I don't. Never crossed my mind to take pictures, and they have been in the tube for about a year now, so none left roling around the shop to show ya. I can tell you this though, I bought left and right hand B7 threaded rod to make my adjustable bushings, Jam nuts for each end of each link, and the lef tand right had coupling nuts and had just over $300 into those materials. B7 is far more expensive than even grade 8, but it was the only grade that I could get both left and right hand rod in. The left hand couplers were about $20 each, and the right hand ones were about $8 each if I remember correctly, so average price wasn't much worse than buying big inserts, it was the threaded rod that made my eyes bulge, I think I had $200 just into the two 3 foot chunks of rod... In the end I wished that I had just bought joints and inserts, but it was too late to go back :)

Later,
Jason
Among other things, welding in a bung made out of a tube nut that's been plated is going to leave contaminants in the weld. While it may not be an issue, it could compromise the integrity of the weld joint. At a minimum you'll need to knock off all the plating before welding.

Additionally, I'd rather have the added strength of drilling and tapping the core material instead of creating a HAZ. Splitting hairs? Maybe... but if you have a lathe....
You have a lathe, either make some good ones or spend the $12 on something you wont have to worry about. :shaking:
I made mine out of 4140. They look just like the one's you buy from the venders here. They were for some tractor joints I was runnning on my steering link ends. They were coarse thread. And 2 years later there still nice and tight. Touck me about a hours after work to make 4 of them.
Funkel said:
Among other things, welding in a bung made out of a tube nut that's been plated is going to leave contaminants in the weld. While it may not be an issue, it could compromise the integrity of the weld joint. At a minimum you'll need to knock off all the plating before welding.

Additionally, I'd rather have the added strength of drilling and tapping the core material instead of creating a HAZ. Splitting hairs? Maybe... but if you have a lathe....
When people say stuff like this, it really makes me wonder if there is any fact behind it, or are they talking out their ass?

How many people have welded tube adapters to the right size tubing, correctly, and have them break at that weld joint because of a heat affected zone? For 3 years I have been looking pirate, the biggest offroad web forum in the world, and have never, not once, ever seen someone say "Man, I am such an idiot for using weld in tube adaptors, they just keep breaking on the trail and leaving me stranded" If you have even one example of this happening, please post up. Maybe we can do a study and find out that out of the million tube adaptors being used today, 1 or 2 have broken at the weld, and then probaly we will find out the guy welded it had never welded before, and he just went to home depot and bought a lincoln 135 to weld them in, and used mig wire with no shielding gas...

The other thing is you better have a big ass lathe to tap a piece of 2" 1/2" wall dom to 1.25" 12tpi. Our shop lathe is a decent size and has a 1.375 through hole, and there is no way to tap a 50" long link with that size bed. Not saying it cant be done, but I would say less that 1% of all people that own any lathe have one big enough to do tap that size and length material.

And on top of that, you want a big diameter lower link. But you dont need all the weight. so if you can fit 2.25 od for your lower links, you could run .25 wall or .375 wall, and have a lot of strength and use a tube adaptor, but you would have to run 5/8" wall or something to leave the id narrow enough to drill and tap. A lot of people have no interest in running tube that thick...
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Funkel said:
Among other things, welding in a bung made out of a tube nut that's been plated is going to leave contaminants in the weld. While it may not be an issue, it could compromise the integrity of the weld joint. At a minimum you'll need to knock off all the plating before welding.

Additionally, I'd rather have the added strength of drilling and tapping the core material instead of creating a HAZ. Splitting hairs? Maybe... but if you have a lathe....
i think once you turn the hex off of it to make it round it would no longer be plated in the area being welded. sure the inside of the threads may still be plated (this may actually be a good thing) but i doubt it would effect the weld on the outside.

about the haz, i have to agree with x-rated. i doubt there are many (if any) weld in bungs that have failed at the weld joint or even any where in the haz. if so i would bet they weren't welded by a competent welder.
X-Rated said:
When people say stuff like this, it really makes me wonder if there is any fact behind it, or are they talking out their ass?
I, like lots of people around here, have spent the better part of my adult life learning how to do things elegantly. You're spending a lot of detail time on your buggy, don't you want it to look top notch when its done? Of course... and you've done a hell of a job thus far making sure that's the case.

Is a tube adapter quick and easy? Sure. Does it work? Absolutely. Is there a better, more elegant way? I certainly think so... and guy has a lathe.

Lets assume that a turned down tube nut is NEVER going to fail. You're still gonna have to chase it with a tap after welding (it IS gonna shrink some). So the tap is now out anyway...

So I'd rather have this:


BTW... I still think turning down a tube nut instead of making it by hand is lame.
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On a tie rod, I too make them by hand, cut and turn, and tap on the lathe. It is strong, quick, easy, and not a problem with 1.25 3/8" wall tube. Drill and tap to 7/8" fine.

That being said, if you are building a lower link, unless you absolutly want a 1/2" wall or thicker, there is no good way to do this on a lathe that makes sense. Like I said, Most people will be fine with 2" .25 wall lowers, some people need more, and the mostly go up in OD, keeping the id the same. Since the biggest joints used today (99.9%) of the time are 1.25 12tpi shanked, you need an ID of 1-1.125 to drill and tap. So you are looking at .5 wall tubing or bigger.

The only way to use a 2" or bigger link with .25 wall or 3/8" wall, is to use a tube adapter. And even if you wanted to use .5 wall 2" tubing, you still have an almost imposible task of trying to get it in the lathe to work with it.



Funkel said:
I, like lots of people around here, have spent the better part of my adult life learning how to do things elegantly. You're spending a lot of detail time on your buggy, don't you want it to look top notch when its done? Of course... and you've done a hell of a job thus far making sure that's the case.

Is a tube adapter quick and easy? Sure. Does it work? Absolutely. Is there a better, more elegant way? I certainly think so... and guy has a lathe.

Lets assume that a turned down tube nut is NEVER going to fail. You're still gonna have to chase it with a tap after welding (it IS gonna shrink some). So the tap is now out anyway...

So I'd rather have this:


BTW... I still think turning down a tube nut instead of making it by hand is lame.
x-rated,

i think you missed that he is not talking about normal aftermarket tube adapters like you would buy from PolyPerformance, but the construction style crap from the hardware store. I have used these and i will never do it again. The zinc coating or whatever it is, and the welding screw up the threads and you end up with a less that desirable piece. Granted, my experience is with small, 1/2", adatpters, but it is not as good as either making or buying an adapter out of mild steel or chromo.
Hey Jason,
Congrats on one hell of a year! Hope you continue your success!

Seth (sorry about the finger!)
Thanks dude- and don't worry, it adds character:D
ON THE RCKS said:
x-rated,

i think you missed that he is not talking about normal aftermarket tube adapters like you would buy from PolyPerformance, but the construction style crap from the hardware store. I have used these and i will never do it again. The zinc coating or whatever it is, and the welding screw up the threads and you end up with a less that desirable piece. Granted, my experience is with small, 1/2", adatpters, but it is not as good as either making or buying an adapter out of mild steel or chromo.

No, I saw what the original guy was asking about, and I read what various people said about it. But my issue was with the comment that a tube adapter is a bad idea b/c if HAZ. Not worth getting all ruffled about, but his point about using a lathe is valid for small stuff where it is reasonable to pick a piece of tube with an ID sufficient to tap, just not for all situations, especially when you start talking about links.

then again, almost no one has a metal lathe at home. So tube adaptors let people make it work. It is probably worth the few dollars to a real one if you dont have a lathe instead of using a coupling nut. But that is just my opinion based on no factual information.
I can't tap 1.5" .250 wall to 3/4-16, its not physically possible. I had the tube, I had the joint, a means of mating the 2 was what I needed. I have to build a single one of these, Im not spending $60 on a tap to tap a single hole. Now that we are past the idea that since I have a lathe I should go the more expensive way, can we go back to the part about material strength and any good reason its different from most commercially sold tube adaptors?

Most tube adaptors are medium carbon steel no? Grade 5 hardware is medium carbon steel with a zinc plated outside no? So if I turn the OD off removing the zinc in the process and getting a very high tolerance fit in the tubing and then rosette weld and full weld the bevelled lip how is it different than a tube adaptor? I am very seriously interested in the difference.

As for having to buy a tap because the threads will shrink a few thousandths, the hole is already tapped you just have to clean up the threads. Buy a bolt for the same size as the threads and cut out a v-notch. If you use a G8 bolt it should clean up the G5 without issue as the G8 is harder.

On another note for cost comparison reasons the coupler nut ran $3 and change, $4 lets say. A tube adaptor for the same size is $11 and shipping, for ease of making a comparison, $12 we'll say. The savings is 66%, so to me, if it fills the same void, even if it lacks the all powerful "finesse" some seem to deem required it makes sense to do.

I hate the attempted arguement that this way is not as good because it lacks finesse or that because it wasn't turned from solid stock its lame. The question wasn't, "Did this project take enough time and demonstrate enough craftsmanship to appease those on the PBB?"
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