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I can agree with most of that. I do think a lot of companies undervalue some of thier employees. Finding good workers is the biggest problem at every company I've been a part of in my working career.
Great companies find a good balance and get the right people on the bus. Bad companies undervalue employees. There are a lot of bad companies. There are also a lot of employees that over value themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
I don't think they value education period so I think you are right on the money there.

I never said they wouldn't be fine without be. I am one cog in a very large machine. Explaining the situation here anonymously is a far cry from how I act at work.

This. I’d much rather have a team player with a good attitude over a self-glorifying badass. A leader isn’t trying to simply assemble the best players, but trying to assemble the best team. Maybe you’re a team player, OP, or maybe you think you’re above your team. By the way—moving up higher in management and being successful means being more of a team player than the individual contributors. You often lose more autonomy the higher you go through the first few rungs of leadership.
LOL. True story. I took a psych eval for work 3-4 months ago that they give to people they are looking to promote that literally said I was too much of a team player and that leaders in our company tend to be less so. I guess they subscribe to the "its lonely at the top" way of thinking.
 

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Maybe the company doesn’t value what you went to school for. Great example, starting salary of mechanical engineer with a masters is less than one with a bachelors. It provides no value in most jobs.

No offense, but from what I just read, I would move on as your employer. Nothing ruins a successful business environment than a I am the greatest attitude. Trust me, if you leave tomorrow, they will be fine. If you stay, they will also be fine. Never understood why people thought they were so special. Everyone is replaceable.
This. Cool, you went to school, half of America has MBAs now with zero experience to back it up. When hiring I tossed MBA resumes if they went directly from Bachelors. To me meant they didn’t have a plan to work or couldn’t get a job and stayed in school for lack of option.

Not sure why you think company would pay more, you already work there doing the work. You’ll have to document why you are worth more.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
This. Cool, you went to school, half of America has MBAs now with zero experience to back it up. When hiring I tossed MBA resumes if they went directly from Bachelors. To me meant they didn’t have a plan to work or couldn’t get a job and stayed in school for lack of option.

Not sure why you think company would pay more, you already work there doing the work. You’ll have to document why you are worth more.
I agree that MBAs direct from Bachelors is a pretty lame thing. I do have plenty of work experience. Actually, as far as I know, most (if not all) top business schools won't even look at you for an MBA unless you have at least 3-5 years of full time work experience.

Promotions generally pay more. And I won't work there doing the work if I leave. Why I am worth more is fairly well documented at this point. Like I said, I think I will get the promotion I want. I just think it will be too late by the time it is offered to me and I will have to twist their arm to put it in writing. Once again, all of this is just fine. I am good any way this thing turns out. The point is that companies could do better. Letting someone that knows your business really well and does a great job and clearly goes above and beyond walk out the door seems short sighted. I am watching it happen the same way with almost every single one of my classmates.

A close friend of mine in class and probably one of the smartest dudes I have ever met was told by the head of his company if he stayed he would be the next VP when the lady that is currently in the role steps down. He was like that sounds great but when is that going to happen? They said they didn't know and that until then he would just continue to do his current job. So they want to make this guy a VP, but won't do anything to keep him there in the mean time? What kind of sense does that make? Needless to say, he is looking elsewhere. I think that company gave him $50k toward his tuition so they thought they might have leverage. If you knew this guy you would know he is someone you should do anything to keep. He is currently planning to leave as soon as he lands a new job.
 

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Most companies are top heavy. The company I work for, (mfg of construction components), is super lean. There is the owner, who owns the buildings, the machinery, the land under the buildings, the inventory, the packaging...IOW, he doesn't owe anyone shit, no banks, no shareholders, partners, nothing.

Then there is my boss, then me and I don't supervise anyone. So that's the structure, absolute minimalist, do your job and you'll get good compensation, or if you don't you'll get replaced, as it should be. Most modern corps are bleeding off the profits to so many people that don't really add anything, that nobody can really make any good money. They set up unrealistic and sometimes indecipherable bonus plans, and with equity groups they don't GAF about anything except documentable EBITA, so they can flip the company.
 

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40 years ago i had an old guy tell me “a company will always pay more to replace you than to keep you”. Rationalize and debate all you want, I still find it to be true.
 

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Behind closed doors, your bosses are saying, "damn, 16 years. I didn't think it would take this long to get rid of him." :flipoff2:

In our local engineering industry, turnover rates are incredibly high. In your first 10-15 years you basically go work for each firm that's worth a shit, chasing money every move. It's unheard of for guys to stay 16 years at their first company. I'm at 13 years with my first company and plan to stay the long haul. They actually pay me what I'm worth though. :grinpimp:



Don't worry, he's doing it wrong anyway. A good side hustle business is a "loss" at the end of the year. Helps with taxes on your normal income :flipoff2:
This needs to be a spin off. My CPA says it can't be done. The more I make on my side gig, the more I'm paying in taxes. There is no "loss". In the meantime, I'm not reporting shit.
 

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Part of it is you are looking. I've had people do this in the past - go on some interviews, come back and say they want X pay to match. Even if you give it to them 6 months later they are still gone. It is hardly ever only about pay for employees who go far enough to interview several places. That's what they claim and it placates them for a few months but then that "Grass is always greener" mentality comes in and they find something the other company appears to have that can't just change on a whim like pay. From a managers perspective your gone anyway, why should they fight to get you more and still have to hire someone in a few months.

When was your last promotion? If you aren't getting promotions every 2-3 years max you aren't hot shit in your company or you are letting others take your credit.

I also wouldnt embark on a master degree without tuition assistance and a prenegotiated promotion on completion. If I did it would be for the sole reason of getting a job elsewhere.
 

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40 years ago i had an old guy tell me “a company will always pay more to replace you than to keep you”. Rationalize and debate all you want, I still find it to be true.
True. This is supported by all the companies out there who have caps on raises, like the MOST they will bump you is XX%. Meanwhile the job market is offering in most cases 25% minimum on most good job changes.

Unfortunately in my case, current employer has a pension plan (yes, an honest to gawd pension) on top of 401K matches. So it means I'm more of a lifer than most in the tech world. :grinpimp:
 

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You’ve said “you made it clear that they were your first choice”.

Is the higher level position open?

Have you applied for it? Not just talked to your boss, but actually submitted an updated resume for the position you desire? If not, why not? You’ve submitted your updated resume to the other companies.
 

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A degree does absolutely not qualify a person as best as brightest. Let’s just dispel that garbage assumption.

Go now and remind your employer of your ask. They could have forgotten or slow playing. To think they are monitoring your personal progress out of work.... who knows. Maybe they aren’t picking up your hints.
 

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Since you work for a fortune 500 company, your room to rise up thru the ranks may be different, but in my non fortune 500 company when I hire someone, lets say for a job in my warehouse, then I have a pay range that I am willing to pay for that position. Now if my warehouse employee goes to night school and gets a master degree in electrical engineering, I don't just pay him $150,000.00 a year to still do the warehouse job. Now on the other hand if I needed a in-house EE, then I would be smart to change his position and give him a raise for the position he was elevated to. In your case you will prob need to change jobs to get the pay your new master degree level of education should get, since your current company can in theory just replace your current position with a college grad (assuming that was your education level when you were hired), for the same or possibly less money than you make.
 

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I run a team of 8 people all with fairly high seniority, running from 2 years to 55 at the company/in the role. There is one employee I will throw money at if they threatened to leave, everyone else I would be setting up some dinner plans with them and wishing them luck. That person has some of the lowest seniority, but is a beast. I guarantee you the other 7 think the place will collapse without them. Just because you have an MBA doesn't mean anything and doesn't automatically entitle you to anything. My guess is your current employer did a ROI on you and figured if you leave whatever we will be fine.

How old are you by chance? A lot of the posts sound like something I would have posted in my 20s before being massively humbled at work a few times.
 

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You’ve said “you made it clear that they were your first choice”.

Is the higher level position open?

Have you applied for it? Not just talked to your boss, but actually submitted an updated resume for the position you desire? If not, why not? You’ve submitted your updated resume to the other companies.
Not only that, but is it relevant to your current position? Or are you expecting to be thrown into high level management just because you got an MBA?
 

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Not a fortune 500 company but my small town is about to become a ghost town because they run all the good help and best people off and those that do nothing get to stick around. Now they are broke, the roads are shit the water is shit, the electric is shit and people and businesses are leaving.
 

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When i left my previous employer they tried to keep me with a raise, but it wasnt enough. I told them flat out that they didnt need to match, but come close as i liked the job and company. My manager told me that new/recruitment money is easier to get than existing. After being gone for almost 2 years my boss reached out and told me to give them a number for me to come back.

The take away i got is that companies dont value who they have working because they know most people wont take the jump to a new job and leave what they know. OP, you may be in the same position, they dont think you will really leave and getting money for a raise/promotion is harder than throwing more money at a new person to get them in the door.
 

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It costs more to undervalue talent than over value it at the professional level.


Prior to this I worked at a consulting firm with 4 offices. I handled a marketing form my local office and an office an hour and a half away, hiring and retention for my department across all 4 offices, project management for 3 project engineers, plus kept a backlog of projects that clients were willing to wait on me specifically to engineer. Just my backlog of work kept the payroll for the entire company paid for 3 years running. My department was the most profitable in the company for the previous 5 years before my departure.

I made it clear after leading the company in profitability for 3 years, I wanted to be promoted to partner. The president of my local office said keep it up next year and it's a done deal. The CEO had another guy he wanted to run the section I was running and wouldn't allow me to promote. He started making moves to restructure the department so the other engineer could be my boss and he began calling me and asking questions about technical stuff within my specialty and I finally started giving him references to read instead of spoon feeding. Next thing you know, my bonuses got cut back. I turned in my resignation 4 years ago, They moved that guy into my position, I got a raise, work less hours, drive less, and my phone doesn't ring on my vacation. That whole department is in shambles now and they can't even legitimately propose on more complex projects and be taken seriously. I don't know what the P & L for that department looks like now to be fair, but I see where it is headed.

The point is, you never know why or what is driving management's decisions, you just have to react with what is best for you and your family. Don't be someone's bitch. It will make you resent them and you spend too much time at work to be resentful.
 

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Maybe I'm not. But I know that at least some of my classmates must be and the problem is pervasive.
what's the problem that is pervasive? That you aren't being offered a promotion for a graduate degree? that's not a problem... that's an entitlement.
 

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The place I work at now is kind of the same way. It's a great place to work, but some of their hiring decisions confuse me.

We have a hand full of temps in the office that we get from a local temp company. Some of the people they have sent us were excellent employees and worked here in the temp slot for a couple years in some cases.

When the company hires for permanent positions, the temps rarely even make the interview list. These are people who are working alongside the rest of us and doing a good job, but they haven't hired one of them on permanently since I've been here. They eventually leave for other jobs and we get to train their replacement. It just makes no sense to me.
 

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A couple thoughts (not necessarily organized by importance). I've dealt with things like this from both sides at a couple different companies.

Your location may be hurting you. Your company may have past experience that there isn't much competition locally and people are unlikely to move. That history is used by HR to dictate pay scales, movement etc.

While you think you are the best and brightest and perfect for the job, it's often a different view from the top. Sometimes unwarranted, sometimes because of some things that you just don't even think of being viewed negatively. Finding out if that is the case and changing that opinion can help you here if you want to put the effort in.

I would quit asking for the promotion. Have a meeting with your boss and whoever else matters. Ask them "What do I need to do to get this promotion? Are there things I haven't proven? Are there tasks I need to show proficiency in? What are they and when can I start on them?" Make them tell you what the reason is that it hasn't happened. It's not wrong to let them know you are getting offers for that position and better elsewhere. This is their opportunity to keep you. Maybe you aren't as important to them as you think regardless of your skill. Some companies don't view certain positions and skills as important regardless of reality. If that's the case, it's time to go anyway.

Long time employees are often hampered by pay scales and such. They may be looking at it as the scale for the nest position is problematic. Maybe you already make enough that it won't be much pay bump and they think you will leave anyway when they can't give you a pay raise in a year or 2.

Did your company pay for any or all of your MBA? If so companies often view they have paid you something already and want to see you work for a bit before just handing out a promotion and pay raise as well.

I had a professor of a grad level class when I was in college that was actually very successful (owned several large successful business that he built from the ground up). He taught 1 class a semester as a way to give back and teach students how things really work as opposed to most classes. He had 4 grade degrees (Masters, 2 doctorates, and a PHD iirc). Several things he taught on have stuck with me for years. One was that every time someone gets a grad degree they automatically want a pay raise and promotion and he laughs at them. He said he tells people to go prove you learned something for a year and come back (he called this getting hair on your degree). He said getting the piece of paper is nice, but prove you learned something and put it to work. This ties in with the above. This may be harder to discern since you have been working at the same place. Maybe you need to highlight to your boss what things you put into practice that you learned and show you are more valuable and have already been putting things into action that you learned.

Another thing I was told early on in my career by several successful people around me was that you typically have to move to be recognized/valued (pay and title/promotion) This proved true for me as well. Not as much title, but pay. I did jump title some, but it was some of my largest pay increases of my career. It's just the way it is. People don't work an entire career for companies anymore. You have to move to get paid. The problem can come in again with how much competition for your skill set is local. I know of a few places where there are oil and gas people paid half of what similar people are in other cities. It's because the company they work for is the only one for over 100 miles in oil and gas or needing the specific skill set. Those people refuse to move and stay there falling behind in pay. It's just how it works.

You can take other offers you get and ask your boss to match or beat them, but, typically, that doesn't work out well. You will resent you had to force them and they will feel like you forced them and are difficult. If you go this route, plan on leaving the company in the next 2 years.

As for working for a public company. I have always worked for public companies. The mantra most people complain about depends on the corporate culture. I have worked places that beat the shareholder value drum, six sigma bs, etc all the time and others where you never heard it. It's the culture. If you want to motivate employees to drive shareholder value give them stock, options, or something tied to stock value. I've seen low level AP and AR "accountants" talk about stock price and finding "X" error helps because they had this as part of their compensation. No on had to bring it up in any meetings or have it on the wall. When you are considering moving to another company, the culture is huge. Try to feel this out when interviewing.

On Edit - Many big companies have lost people they thought were critical in the past. They had no choice, but to hire a replacement and it worked out fine. It was tough for those immediately surrounding a position. but worked out fine in the eyes of HR and upper management. This just drives the idea that everyone is replaceable.
 
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