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Atomic Test Lab Rat
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
after many hours or searching and reading i still have a few questions. First, What joint do people use for the axle side of the wishbone upper link? second i realize i need to use the link calculator to get the proper lengths and angles and stuff. but do most people find that straight or triangulated lowers work better or give better suspension movement and attributes? this is going to be in the front of a 2000 ranger with a waggy 44 and 36" TSLs.
 

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I personally use a 1 1/4" heim joint, the best that i can afford. Then I lay it on its side, as many others do. Triangulate the lowers or not, it is a steering axle afterall so the flex steer can be compensated for as long as it is full hydro. If its not full hydro, scrap the entire project?:D This can be a dangerous road you are traveling if you don't know what matters in a suspension design. This is a design that can end up deadly if you do not understand what you are taking on. Read everything you can and ask for all the advice you can. Be very specific and cover every base.

Good Luck Brotha.:)

Easy Rick.
 

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Atomic Test Lab Rat
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Discussion Starter #3
yea i will be using a steering box and highsteer. im starting to experiment with the link calculator. by steering problems you mean the Oversteer number in the calc right?
 

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redranger4.0 said:
yea i will be using a steering box and highsteer. im starting to experiment with the link calculator. by steering problems you mean the Oversteer number in the calc right?
Full hydro or nothing. The bumpsteer is not something that the calc. will figure for you and it will be horrible. I would not build something like what you are considering based almost solely on the bumpsteer you will have. Why dont you want a panhard rod?

Easy Rick.
 

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Atomic Test Lab Rat
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Discussion Starter #5
also ive been searching and trying to learn as much as i can, but just about every thread i find about comparing 4 link to wishbone has like zero info on the wishbone and is just a thread about triangulated 4 links. anyone want to give me the much knowledge to start designing (what i need to look for or watch out for) or point me in the right direction for it.
 

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OK, brief steering tech I guess.

With either a wishbone 3-link, or a triangulated 4 link, you've got equal link connection on either side of the axle. This means that if you hit a bump or rut squarely with both tires at the same time, the axle moves only vertically. If you've got a mechanical drag link, like from a steering box, it's gonna be at an angle compared to the straight line of the axle. Picture your drag link connecting the steering box to the passenger axle and you'll have an idea.

Problem is, with that specific setup, when the axle compresses straight up, the drag link moves up too, but since it's at an angle, it wants to push on the passenger side knuckle as the suspension cycles. This leads to bumpsteer - either the vehicle darts left as the suspension compresses, or the wheel spins in your hands while you keep going straight.

With a panhard rod, placed parallel to the drag link (as it's supposed to be placed), it will force the axle to move slightly towards the passenger side as the suspension compresses. Even though the axle itself moves laterally under the vehicle, the steering rod will move with it, and the wheels will stay where they're supposed to be.

This is where full hydro works well. Since a full hydro setup has no connection to the frame, the axle can move wherever it wants to with no effect on the position of the wheels. It's like having a rack-and-pinion setup that mounts right on the axle, but with a lot more mechanical advantage. However, unless you go the extra mile and get a load-reactive orbital and a nice ram, it'll feel very vague on the street and won't have the return-to-center you'll get with a decent caster angle and mechanical steering linkage.

I'd recommend either a radius arm setup, or a x-link plus panhard setup for the front.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
vetteboy79 said:
OK, brief steering tech I guess.

With either a wishbone 3-link, or a triangulated 4 link, you've got equal link connection on either side of the axle. This means that if you hit a bump or rut squarely with both tires at the same time, the axle moves only vertically. If you've got a mechanical drag link, like from a steering box, it's gonna be at an angle compared to the straight line of the axle. Picture your drag link connecting the steering box to the passenger axle and you'll have an idea.

Problem is, with that specific setup, when the axle compresses straight up, the drag link moves up too, but since it's at an angle, it wants to push on the passenger side knuckle as the suspension cycles. This leads to bumpsteer - either the vehicle darts left as the suspension compresses, or the wheel spins in your hands while you keep going straight.

With a panhard rod, placed parallel to the drag link (as it's supposed to be placed), it will force the axle to move slightly towards the passenger side as the suspension compresses. Even though the axle itself moves laterally under the vehicle, the steering rod will move with it, and the wheels will stay where they're supposed to be.

This is where full hydro works well. Since a full hydro setup has no connection to the frame, the axle can move wherever it wants to with no effect on the position of the wheels. It's like having a rack-and-pinion setup that mounts right on the axle, but with a lot more mechanical advantage. However, unless you go the extra mile and get a load-reactive orbital and a nice ram, it'll feel very vague on the street and won't have the return-to-center you'll get with a decent caster angle and mechanical steering linkage.

I'd recommend either a radius arm setup, or a x-link plus panhard setup for the front.
never heard of an X link, example?
 

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Atomic Test Lab Rat
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Discussion Starter #9
Brink_ said:
he is saying 3 or 4 link. Insert the number you want for the x.
ah yea im looking into 3 and 4 links with a panhard. my question is with the link calculator how do you set it up for a 3 link with no wishbone? i cant seem to get rid of one of the links. then also if i go with a 3 link with panhard, i have a driverside diff is there a side that is better then the other for the top link?
 

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redranger4.0 said:
then also if i go with a 3 link with panhard, i have a driverside diff is there a side that is better then the other for the top link?
Yes, typically you want to mount the link itself on the diff housing somewhere. That will keep the twisting force (axle wrap, effectively) from being transmitted through the axle tubes.
 

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All the buggies we have built the last 2 years use wishbone lowers and opposed uppers. Good travel and very predictable.

If the drag link was flat, then I'd worry less about steering. The link (top or bottom use) is in the center of the housing so it's movement is very little. Nice thing about using it as the lower in the front is it can be an engine skid plate as well. But can you get the drag link flat?

The length needs to be 30" min and should have 50% or more width to length ratio 36" long by 18" width on the legs. We use an 1.25 hyme turned regular (not on it's side) because as a lower, the arm gets impacted by rocks and that's likely to be harder then any side load we'd toss at it.

The bad: It's hell on diff housings. You're always trying to bend the housing in half from the center. With a heavy tube 60 you're probably ok but our 9" housing/60 outers get beat. Even with back braces and heavy tubes, they still try to bend. Not that we are easy on them.

As much as I love the way they work, all the new cars are getting the S and N Fab style 4 link. Works almost the same as the wishbone but doesn't kill the housings.

Send me an e-mail and I'll send you some pics of the wishbone if you want to see what it looks like.

Tony K
 
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