YJ on 421's

28905 Views 62 Replies 20 Participants Last post by Tyson Pfenneberger, Oct 22, 2009

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · Mar 5, 2006

Here are some pics and info on my project Jeep. My goal is an all purpose all weather vehicle that preforms like a Mog and allows enough room for family and some gear. The approach is simple and straight forward. I do not wish to reinvent what the Mercedes engineers already know. Therefore the base chassis is mostly stock, just rearranged. This is the donner vehicle, 1973 421 Unimog.

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U1300L

· #21 · Mar 30, 2006

Wrong!! Even the locker is different!! Axle splines are the same.
Does your Benz parts manuals tell you that there about 7 different axle joint types on a 406 axle??
And on an real 421 axle you cant use 406 portal gears!

jptbay said:
According to my original Mercedes parts and service manuals, for 411/421 mogs with the newer style axles (406/416 type) virtually every part number crosses over to a 406/416 part number. Some exceptions include components related to axle width, as the 411/421 axles are narrower. Ie inner axles, and axle tubes.

JARE (on this board) from Finland runs this style 411 axle in his Formula Offroad competition buggy. I doubt it is possible to find a way to abuse an axle more. His axles are stock other than swapping out his portal gears to newer 406/416 ones, which are wider. These wider gears are a direct swap in. He also swapped in shortened 406/416 inner axles that are stronger (increased diameter). Check out some of the wild video footage he has posted here.

The differential locking mechanism is the same as 406/416 axles. A little known fact is that these lockers can be either pneumatically or hydraulically operated. Some Mogs had no on board air systems. The lockers are actuated by a remote slave cylinder located above the transmission, and use ATF fluid. You can actuate your locker by either method.

J.P.

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #22 · Mar 30, 2006

Yikes!

WOW! I don't think I have been so "WRONG!!" before. I think we have a Unimog guru offering us enlightenment.
Let's see; apparently / readily seen, visable. Not exactly!
I am all for enlightenment but if I am reading the attitude correctly, This Guru can stay on his mountain top.
Cheers

U1300L

· #23 · Mar 30, 2006 (Edited)

Take them apart and you will see!! Front portal gears are not as wide as 404 ones!
It is funny that nobody here knows something about Mog axles. That 406 axle bible from Sapper is also incomplete.

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #24 · Mar 31, 2006

I understand now! Sometimes I make the mistake of confusing a language barrier for attitude. Sorry! I should not assume that everyone can read english. Thanks for your input.

Sapper

· #25 · Apr 2, 2006

U1300L said:
Take them apart and you will see!! Front portal gears are not as wide as 404 ones!
It is funny that nobody here knows something about Mog axles. That 406 axle bible from Sapper is also incomplete.

(HI-JACK)

I am always looking for more info. As I mentioned before that there are many differences but there are many common parts from the 406 and 416 series axles and there are some from the newer models as well.

I have a 21 spline torque tube that was from a u-1000 that perfectly matched my 406 and 416 axles. I currently have parts of a 406 front and a 406 rear and a 416 rear and most of the parts are all interchangeable with the exception for the ring and pinions in the 406 rear as it does have smaller shafts and are 19 spline. The portal gears are identical with that exception as well as the portal housings.

But I am very eager to learn more about the parts as is everyone else. So please start a new thread about interchangeable parts from the different series and or chassis numbers.

Jay

(/END HI-JACK)

Lets see more of the project. I am just starting to cut tubing finally for mine now.

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Amund

· #26 · Apr 2, 2006

jptbay said:
JARE (on this board) from Finland runs this style 411 axle in his Formula Offroad competition buggy. I doubt it is possible to find a way to abuse an axle more.
J.P.

Wrong, unless something has changed very recently. The Willyster features Volvo C303 axles, while the Alfaster (now sold I believe) had some early narrow mog axles, I am not sure which type, but I am pretty sure they were the 404-lookalikes, i.e. one-piece cast housing. I am he or someone who knows better than me will chime in and confirm/deny.

Furthermore, I believe formula offroad is pretty easy on axles, compared to rock crawling. Yes, it's tough when rolling down the hills, but during normal comps they see mostly high speeds and relatively low torques. Many are running toy axles (though they are known to blow up), D44s, Ford 9"/D50 TTB etc.

And as the third point I seem to recall Jare posting problems with one of his mogged rigs, I believe that was the Alfaster. He was constantly breaking one of the rear portals when running 44s, they couldn't take it. And Alfaster is a really light rig.

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jptbay

· #27 · Apr 3, 2006

We had trouble with breaking up portal gears (not the housing) when we used the original axles from 411120-026615 (chassis number) unimog (axles look like 406 or 416, but are more narrow). The portal gears teeth were not as wide as they could be. But in 406 mogs the teeths are wider, so we bought those and stuffed them in our axles. Also some of the axle shafts are made thicker. Original ones were really thin as you can see from the picture. The one on the left is original axle shaft from our mog axles. And as you can see its twisted from the middle. And that mid part is not very thick. So we made new shafts that were thicker and put the 406 portal gears and last time i broke a portal was back in 1999 (if I remember that was the last 411 portal gears that were in the axles).

In the picture shafts from the left:
411 (cast type axle same as 406 looks) front (twisted)
411 (404 look alike axle, but more narrow) rear
Dana44
Attached Images

__________________
Formula Off Road kicks ass

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Last edited by Jare : 02-16-2006 at 04:05 PM.

Could be that I misunderstood him. There is a language barrier.

I am no expert. Just looking to learn and share with others.

Sorry for the hijack Tyson. Look forward to more progress on your build.

J.P.

Jare

· #28 · Apr 5, 2006

jptbay said:
Could be that I misunderstood him. There is a language barrier.

I am no expert. Just looking to learn and share with others.

Sorry for the hijack Tyson. Look forward to more progress on your build.

J.P.

Language barrier or not....maybe I should have posted up a pic of the rig that i was talking about. For some it's impossible to know that I have or have got few of these babies. Alfaster as shown above was on 411 early years axles those looked like 404 but are more narrow. To those axles we fitted 404 portals after we had 2 break downs with the original ones.

Willyster is my Formula Off Road Jeep that runs on Volvo c-303 axles (white one on the right).

This is our Moggster (picture series taken on "Just For Show" track after a Trial competition) that runs front axle that was originally from 411120-026615 (chassis number) mog. Some of the rear axle parts are also in this and some others too, but those axles are filled with other/bigger mog parts and I don't remeber us having any major problems fitting them. Moggster has tube frame, 44" TSL and 350 tbi chevy and a 350 tranny + Np208/mog hybrid t-case .

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7

geberhard

· #29 · Apr 5, 2006

really nice setup! It was a cute Mog to start from

Am planning something similar TJ wise, will keep on checking this thread great job so far!

Gui

Discosaurus

· #30 · Apr 5, 2006

U1300L said:
Wrong!!

Wow...some attitude from a guy with 5 posts, 3 of them in this thread and 2 others with attitude in other threads.

I'm just a poor 416 owner who knows little about his axles (since they're on the ORIGINAL TRUCK - my attempt at attitude :flipoff2: ). If you're so knowledgable, why don't you try to help instead of just saying WRONG. Or, STFU...

Maybe you should hang around and read more about Pirate before posting s**t like that

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #31 · Apr 6, 2006

Heh Heh Heh! Highjack? No worries, Just happy to be in such good company!:smokin:

U1300L

· #32 · Apr 6, 2006

Discosaurus said:
Wow...some attitude from a guy with 5 posts, 3 of them in this thread and 2 others with attitude in other threads.

I'm just a poor 416 owner who knows little about his axles (since they're on the ORIGINAL TRUCK - my attempt at attitude :flipoff2: ). If you're so knowledgable, why don't you try to help instead of just saying WRONG. Or, STFU...

Maybe you should hang around and read more about Pirate before posting s**t like that

Why should I tell everybody here the differences of all the Mog axles!? Everybody here knows everything about everything! Also I do not give shit about Pirate. No informations only bla bla, bling bling and shit to Newbies like F.. off etc etc. Everybody here is so cool. So why should I give some informations, when everybody here knows everything

!?

Regards
Newbie Paul

88Montero

· #33 · Apr 6, 2006

Tyson Pfenneberger said:
Heh Heh Heh! Highjack? No worries, Just happy to be in such good company!:smokin:

second that. any new pics or work done?

dukguy

· #34 · Apr 6, 2006 (Edited)

Tyson Pfenneberger said:
Rear steer.

Tyson I realize you have rear steer but it still looks like your turning radius might be a little short. Any thoughts on maybe changing the rims for a set with differnt back spacing?

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kwrangln

· #35 · Apr 6, 2006

Tyson Pfenneberger said:
Stock steering box. I might change this for clearance concerns. Overall width is approx 74.5"

First off, kick ass build.

Now the question.

Being a YJ guy, I've run a few different width setups and the 74.5" overall seems real narrow for the tire size. When I changed backspacing on my last heep to make it 78.5" wide, it made a world of difference in stability, and that was on 35" tires with standard axles, so using that as my baseline, looking at what you have so far I see barrel rolls in your future.

Am I way off base on the tire size you plan on running? Thoughts or comments?

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #36 · Apr 7, 2006

Width concerns

Yep, I tend to agree. My plan is to complete the build as is and then do some testing. It does seem a little narrow. I think what allows Unimogs to get away with this is the weight of the drivetrain. Eventually I am going to use some reversable unimog wheel centers and make some beadlocks that allow me to turn them in for the current width and then reverse them for better stability. I like these axles for their width. I figure it is much easier to start narrow and adjust to the most desirable width, also the weight should be slightly less. And yes, the turn radius might be just shy of full lock right now. I think it will rub the frame with a fair amount of suspension articulation. Man! nothing gets by you guys. I will have to take pictures from farther away :idea:

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aaron o.

· #37 · Apr 8, 2006

WRONG!!! Sorry, just wanted to feel smart for a second! OK, I'm done now.

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #38 · Apr 8, 2006

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

dukguy

· #39 · Apr 8, 2006

I have a set of the 404 style 411 axles and they are pretty narrow. I just wondered how you were gonna work it out.

Tyson Pfenneberger

Discussion Starter · #40 · Apr 9, 2006

If I can not get the width I want with backspacing, then I would resort to the addition of aluminum spacers. I doubt if I would go beyond 80" though. Also I do not want to expose too much of the portal box.
88mont; Not much progress lately, been focused on getting the 404.1 ready for Moab. Cheers, Tyson

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