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What is wrong with my fuel system?

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Discussion starter · #141 ·
smewhtguy said:
Just out of curiousity what were the dimensions of the tank and where was the sump placed?

I agree on the no one perfect solution for everyone.
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It was a plastic tank. I think it was 24x24x12 or 16. The sump was on the front. So when you went up hill the fuel would run to the back and starve the pump. That is when I learned to fill up before I went out to play.
 
#142 · (Edited)
Dookey said:
It was a plastic tank. I think it was 24x24x12 or 16. The sump was on the front. So when you went up hill the fuel would run to the back and starve the pump. That is when I learned to fill up before I went out to play.
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That is what I figured, when I built my tank I built in as a stand up and I think the only way it could starve is at less than 1/8 tank on a severe side hill for an extended amount of time.

All of this discussion is playing heavy on the decision we are trying to make for the new buggys fuel system.
 
Discussion starter · #143 ·
smewhtguy said:
That is what I figured, when I built my tank I built in as a stand up and I think the only way it could starve is at less than 1/8 tank on a severe side hill for an extended amount of time.

All of this discussion is playing heavy on the decision we are trying to make for the new buggys fuel system.
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It is a very good discussion. I am learning that what always worked isn't working anymore and it is time for something different.
 
#145 ·
I don't think the walbro's were the main problem, but I think several small issues added up to a big problem (not saying that the route you're taking isn't the best either, because I have done pretty much the same thing0

This fuel system has been in use for 3.5 years. When I built it, I was told it would never work, the hose would fall apart in under 6 months, etc. Right afterwards I started doing all metal line, and just waited for the rubber hose to fail.. 3.5 years later and it works great still. Only issues I have ever had was when I got water in the tank, or when the fuel level gets low enough to cause one of the walbro's to close, and then the pump will get loud for a little while. It uses a walbro 255lph pump, externally

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For the last 2 years I have been doing the cell's with internal pumps (some walbro, some other brands). Still no issues, other than when water or trash was introduced to the inside of the cell
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Its just really odd that some can have zero problems, and others have nothing but constant problems.
 
#146 ·
smewhtguy said:
I still don't see the reason to over complicate all this, why is there no love for a simple sumped tank? My tank is 6-22.5-18 l-w-h with a 6" triangle shapped sump that holds about a half quart and is gravity fed threw a 2" hole with a -6 line to the external prefilter then to the pump. Other than cleaning the prefilter it has worked great all season.
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Same here, 15 gallon with a rear 2" deep sump section with a cover over the top with about a 2" feed hole into it. My fuel line is -8 everywhere though.

I've had it straight up/down and laying on both sides and never had it cut out.

Twice now I've run out of gas, but it was sitting in the yard getting washed after a trip. :flipoff2:

I do have a buddy with a plastic cell that the sump is mounted in the front for some reason. Had to explain to him its easier to go downhill without gas due to gravity. But you really need that stupid gas to go in the motor to fight gravity and go uphill. :laughing:
 
#147 ·
I think it was JR who had a really great sump setup on his buggy. In the bottom of the cell, he had a small box that held maybe 1-2 quarts of fuel. The pickup and the return fed off that box. The box was fed by a small 1" hole that was dimple died into the sump. That way fuel could easily run in, but had one hell of a time running out
 
#149 ·
Fl-Krawler said:
I think it was JR who had a really great sump setup on his buggy. In the bottom of the cell, he had a small box that held maybe 1-2 quarts of fuel. The pickup and the return fed off that box. The box was fed by a small 1" hole that was dimple died into the sump. That way fuel could easily run in, but had one hell of a time running out
Click to expand...
dave coles pro mod tacoma was like that also
 
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#150 ·
Fl-Krawler said:
I think it was JR who had a really great sump setup on his buggy. In the bottom of the cell, he had a small box that held maybe 1-2 quarts of fuel. The pickup and the return fed off that box. The box was fed by a small 1" hole that was dimple died into the sump. That way fuel could easily run in, but had one hell of a time running out
Click to expand...
I originally had mine plumbed that way. Figured I could always put the return back down there if I had issues.

Think I was worried about warm fuel etc and thought it would be better to dump it back into the main cavity of the cell.
 
#151 ·
ROXROES:21303050 said:
Fl-Krawler said:
I think it was JR who had a really great sump setup on his buggy. In the bottom of the cell, he had a small box that held maybe 1-2 quarts of fuel. The pickup and the return fed off that box. The box was fed by a small 1" hole that was dimple died into the sump. That way fuel could easily run in, but had one hell of a time running out
Click to expand...
I originally had mine plumbed that way. Figured I could always put the return back down there if I had issues.

Think I was worried about warm fuel etc and thought it would be better to dump it back into the main cavity of the cell.
Click to expand...
That and I was worried about turbulence from the fuel dumping back into the same spot as the outlet, my return is high and on the side of the tank.
 
#152 · (Edited)
smewhtguy said:
That and I was worried about turbulence from the fuel dumping back into the same spot as the outlet, my return is high and on the side of the tank.
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youll get more turbulence and disruption from the fluid returning above the fluid level, aka falling into the fluid as well as introducing air to the fluid
 
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#154 · (Edited)
I have kinda voiced my (inexperienced) opinion once or twice before like in patooyee's fuel thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...-discussion/1386010-fuel-cell-pickup-solutions-dont-include-walbro-pickups.html), but I'll say it here. I'm a firm believe that this is one thing manufacturers have got right on our vehicles over the past decade or so. I feel like sometimes people feel the need to "upgrade" their fuel systems because it's a trendy thing to do and everyone is doing it.

My WJ uses the same/similar fuel pump module that jeep has been using since the mid/late 90's, and it has reliably worked to get every last ounce of gas out of my 20.5 gallon tank without a hiccup for entirely too many years and miles. It is a prefilter, pickup, return, surge tank and fuel pump all in one. If you have a high horsepower engine you can replace the pump with a high volume if you find the limit of an OEM one.

The surge tank lands in the middle of the gas tank, and is spring loaded with little rubber feet to keep the prefilter against the bottom of the tank. The return line comes back from the filter/regulator and drops into the surge tank keeping it full. The surge tank has aluminum walls which I can only expect help dissipate heat generated from returning fuel into the rest of the gas in the tank. Extra bonus of all this is that the fuel pump stays submerged inside the full surge tank until damn near the entire gas tank is empty, keeping the pump quiet, cool and happy for as long as possible.

I'm going to try the don't fix it if it ain't broke mentality, see how long I can get away with it.

*Edit* I was just having another thought, about this application in the racing world. If you're having a fuel delivery problem in the middle of a race and don't want to spend time diagnosing things, swapping a spare unit in replaces the prefilter, pump and surge tank as a unit and can be done in minutes. You don't need to worry about which part isn't working because it all gets swapped anways. Pull the outlet and return lines off, disconnect the power harness, unscrew the locking cap and it's out. No bolts, no special tools, and you get to see the condition of the inside of the tank when you do it.
 
#156 · (Edited)
Fair enough, so throw another pickup tube with an external pump to be your backup. Or put two of those complete units in your fuel cell, once again having one as a backup. Then you have that feature.

*Edit* All i'm saying is those pump units can be swapped almost as quickly as a spare tire. If you lose one mid race and go to your backup, at the next pit stop your crew can swap a new backup in as without extending the stop by much
 
#157 ·
AgitatedPancake said:
Fair enough, so throw another pickup tube with an external pump to be your backup. Or put two of those complete units in your fuel cell, once again having one as a backup. Then you have that feature.

*Edit* All i'm saying is those pump units can be swapped almost as quickly as a spare tire. If you lose one mid race and go to your backup, at the next pit stop your crew can swap a new backup in as without extending the stop by much
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pumps need to be in the tank, i will never run an external high pressure pump.

heres what i want to know ... has anyone running an alltech setup had a pump failure?
 
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#158 ·
mobil1syn said:
pumps need to be in the tank, i will never run an external high pressure pump.

heres what i want to know ... has anyone running an alltech setup had a pump failure?
Click to expand...
happens, usually we can trace it to a problem but it happens. It happened a lot till we figured out walbro pick ups.
 
#159 ·
mobil1syn said:
pumps need to be in the tank, i will never run an external high pressure pump.

heres what i want to know ... has anyone running an alltech setup had a pump failure?
Click to expand...
I agree the ideal place and setup for racing is one of Alltech's setups in the tank. I work on high end cars that just till a few years ago used Bosch external pumps on all their cars. I have replaced maybe 10-15 external fuel pumps in the 20 years I've been working on this make. I replace the new style in-tank pump setups about 1 every week. All the external style pumps have large gravity feed lines and do no pulling, only pushing. I think an external pump setup correct will work just fine on 90% of the trail rigs.
 
#160 ·
ZukIzzy said:
happens, usually we can trace it to a problem but it happens. It happened a lot till we figured out walbro pick ups.
Click to expand...
Do you have any experience with surge tanks? I've been planning on setting up my new cell with an internal pump mounted to the top plate, with a surge tank in the cell that the pump will fit inside of.

Looking at this Fuel Safe unit.
Lightweight Surge Tank, ST110 - Collectors / Surge Tanks
 
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Dookey
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