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#21 ·
I am torn down the middle on the spotter rope. We as a team all but refuse to use it, and yet i think it was a vital part of our learning to compete. I think the use of it can add to the complexity of course design in order to continue push the limits of what can be done.

Danger is where we should be. Danger is what draws spectators. I am prepaired to put myself in the line of fire.

As a rear steer team I am all for eliminating the use penalties. I believe it would definitely contribute to balancing the field. I belive it has been proven that rear engine machines (can not be) are not as competitive with rear steer and yet front engine machines can, with the exception of the handicap. I belive anyone with a rear engine machine can only argue for fear of losing their edge.
 
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#22 ·
Yep, agreeing with Dustin and Ken on this also. It's too late for the 2006 season to be changing RS points. Most people that have built new rigs are finished or close to it.

I don't mind seeing the strap go by the wayside, or possibly just a higher penalty for using it. That way if it was needed for safety, it's still available but at a higher price.

I believe the points George is making are good ones, but a little to late to implement this season.
 
#23 · (Edited)
SuperRanger said:
Hal,

My point is, you have to draw the line somewhere. What is good for some is bad for others. Just give Rock Runner Racing another bag of money for a mod rig and get in the real class! :flipoff2:
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Well, I think that's my point is that someone somewhere is going to have to pony up for a new rig, and I think there's a lot more people who can go with my type rig than yours. For example say someone wants to get into competing and they want to buy JP's old Avalanche buggy. If the rules were changed to the way I described them then that person could hop right into a class and have a competitive rig. If not they're forced into the unlimited class and will be at a huge disadvantage.

Don't get me wrong I understand your point with regard to fitting the steering box, I'm just saying we either make some changes now or later. Eventually someone is going to have a buggy they're going to have to scrap, and people are going to be pissed. In my opinion it's better for the sport as a whole to do away with your class, and make it as I described it. If we do that then anyone who buys a buggy built within the past 4-5 years will have a class they can be competitive in. Whether it's an old Cambell buggy, Jason's old CJ, the original Matrix, whatever, they can be competitive. If we don't merge all front-engines into one class, then anyone who wants to get into the sport today HAS to build an entirely new buggy, either a moon buggy, or a square-framed, hydro-assist buggy. (Obviously I'm biased, and would like my own buggy to still be relevant, same as you want your buggy to still be relevant. But I think it's cheaper for people with your type to modify theirs to fit, than for people with round-tube to add a square-frame)

I think overall it's better to keep as many buggies relevant as possible, AND give people more opportunites to get into this sport if they want to. There's a HUGE difference between buying JPs rig for $20k, and being somewhat competitive, and plunking down $50k+ for a new rig. Go read those threads about "What's the cheapest way to get into the sport" everyone claims that all these rigs go up for sale at the end of the season, but honestly they don't. There aren't tons of screaming deals to get into a used buggy, and if the sport keeps progressing towards all moonbuggies, then the used buggy market gets even smaller.

I guarantee you, right now with the way the rules are, within two years you won't see a single front-engine two-seat style buggy in the unlimited/supermod class of the UROC Pro series. There just won't be a point in having one, rear-steer or not.
 
#25 ·
SuperRanger said:
What makes you think a 4 year old supermod buggy would be competitive in the modified class? These classes are two different animals. Oil and water...
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I'm not trying to agitate you, so I'm sorry if you feel attacked that wasn't my intention.

But honestly if I swapped a non-steer axle on the back end of my buggy, my buggy would be a lot more similar to yours than Scrapper. I wouldn't exactly say they're oil and water...
 
#26 ·
I am not trying to offend you either Hal, sorry. I guess it came across wrong. The way I see it ties back into George's view -

Unlimited - Make it pretty much unlimited with rules for safety and the intention to keep it an automotive based vechicle.

Modified - The marketing class! Lets progress to make them trophy trucks that look better than anything else out there. If full hydro and full tube chassis make sense for this type of vision, lets by all means consider it. I just don't think these changes should be considered to house old supermod rigs.

I have said it before but I see it like Trophy Trucks and Class 1 in desert racing. They are both fast, they are both sweet, they play by different rules. Neither is a "handy down" class.
 
#27 ·
For those of us with out rear steer, I think that it is too late to change the rules now. I am not apposed to this changing in the future though.
But if this changes for '07, then let us know now so we can all start planning for it.

As for the spotter rope, I think it should go away. This truely makes this sport have a level playing field.

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#28 ·
SuperRanger said:
What makes you think a 4 year old supermod buggy would be competitive in the modified class? These classes are two different animals. Oil and water...
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Sorry dude, Four years ago most unlimited class trucks had square frames, steering boxes, and coil-overs, or leaf springs. Look at every truck Shannon built before the moon buggy fad happened. With the rules changed as Hal described, all of these old trucks would still be competitive in our class. Square frames mean nothing. Sure it was a little harder to assemble it, but with a little inginuity, it will work just as well as an assist system. Your frame rails have little to do with the function of the steering. Given, everything properly built, it will work the same. I would have no problem what so ever opening up the class to allow full tube chassis, and I will in no way feel outgunned, or feel required to build a new truck. I would love to have more competition in our class. I could ditch the steering box, throw on an orbital valve, and the truck will perform the same, and the spectators won't notice the difference.

Brian
 
#29 ·
Brian -

You really think a leaf spring rig could be competitive? Respectfully, I don't think the technology in our class matches that of the supermod class 4 years ago. Currently, I think modifieds might out climb supermods but be a little less manuverable on technical stuff. I think technology has come a long way in 4 years. We have had this debate before, we are beating a dead horse.

Would we compete against the vehicles you describe? Yes. It sounds like that is the case in WE-Rock. I am not trying to protect a nitch.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Good Topic, there is merit to most of these arguments. Hal makes some good points. The problem is in the rules. The current rules are conducive if you drive a single seat, mid-engine, non-rs buggy. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you allowed spotter ride bonus on all courses and did away with RS penalty!!! The rules are forcing teams (without M-buggies) to compete against them and to add salt to the cut get penalized for rear steer without giving an option for bonus points thru spotter ride. So most teams will either build a M-buggy, quit competing, or continue bringing a knife to a gun fight.
 
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#31 ·
Since we are looking back, a long time ago, (four years) rear steer points were more excessive. At the same time the judges were still counting, and stop points were being given. Now days no stop points, and low reverse points means a non rear steer truck you can take 5 backups and it equals one rear steer. Four years ago it was a much more level playing field between those with and without rearsteer.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Extrem Rock Crawling

HOLA GEORGE,

HOW ARE YOU AMIGO? I SENT YOU AN EMAIL.

VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION HERE. WE HAVE SIMILAR PROBLEMAS IN MEXICO IN REGARDS TO RULES BUT WE HAVE NEVER BEEN A TEAM TO ARGUE
WE SIMPLY ANALIZE THE PROBLEM AND TRY AND SOLVE IT AND MAKE THIS MOTOR SPORT MORE COMPETITIVE.

DUSTIN,

I FOUND THE LINK TO THE SUBCRIPTIONS BUT ITS NOT WORKING. EMAIL ME PLEASE.

Brad Lovell,
I SENT YOU A PM.
 
#38 ·
Brian E said:
Since we are looking back, a long time ago, (four years) rear steer points were more excessive. At the same time the judges were still counting, and stop points were being given. Now days no stop points, and low reverse points means a non rear steer truck you can take 5 backups and it equals one rear steer. Four years ago it was a much more level playing field between those with and without rearsteer.
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I think that is a pretty good arguement to lower the current penalty.

Quit picking on me! :flipoff2:

Considering the wall at Supercrawl for debate of this front engine / rear engine / rear steer / modified debate - here are the numbers of those that made it over regardless of scoring changes:

Supermods - 8 out of 61 (13%)

Modifieds - 4 out of 36 (11%)

Front engine Supermodifieds - 4 out of 8 (50%)

Have at it guys, I am going to duck out to the shop!
 
#40 ·
Brian E said:
Since we are looking back, a long time ago, (four years) rear steer points were more excessive. At the same time the judges were still counting, and stop points were being given. Now days no stop points, and low reverse points means a non rear steer truck you can take 5 backups and it equals one rear steer. Four years ago it was a much more level playing field between those with and without rearsteer.
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makes sence to me.......maybe not get rid of rs points but a reduction in them makes sence, with the known possiblity of elimination in 07.

spotter ropes, loose em

spotter ride...... just make it a solo run for all involved... its driver and machine, no other input...period.

as far as outside help.... if you cant fix it on the course with equipment and driver/spotter, sucks to be you
 
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