dana 60 ? carriers 4:10&down. 4:56&up

intheworks · Jan 10, 2008

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dana...QihZ006QQcategoryZ33731QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

is this ad correct Dana 60 Reverse Rotation THICK ring and pinion in your choice of 4.88, 5.13 or 5.38. This gear is designed to fit 4.10 and DOWN diff case's.

so will a 5.38 gear set work with a 4.10 and down carrier?

i dont think it will after reading the billivista d60 bible again.

so i know this. i need 5.38 regular rotation gears for my front.
but for the rear d60 is the axle regular or reverse rotation? i dont see any info on the rear 60's in the bible.. its just your standard dodge lowpinion 60

Thanks-

Rocco · Jan 10, 2008

The thick gearsets are ment for the 4.10 and down case. The extra thick gear makes up for the carrier offset.

The dodge will be a standard rotation so those gears are no good for you.

jamesroney · Feb 6, 2008

The reverse rotation Dana 60 Front axle uses only 1 carrier. There is no such thing as a 4.10 and down (or 4.56 and up) when talking about a reverse rotation, high pinion Dana 60 front drive axle.

Unfortunately, the carrier used in the reverse rotation front axle just happens to be EXACTLY the same as the carrier used in the standard rotation housing for 4.10 and down. Thus all the confusion. The carrier for the 4.56 and up standard rotation housing moves the ring gear about 3/16 inch closer to the pinion centerline so that smaller diameter pinion gears can use reasonable thickness ring gears.

In order to accomodate the smaller pinion diameter on the high-pinion, Dana elected to simply add material to the ring gear, instead of using a carrier with the different offset.

Now, to make things a little more complicated...the dana 60 was factory equipment on high performace Dodge muscle cars. The lowest gears available from the factory was 4.10...so no problem. Some hot-rodders wanted to go lower, so they used 4.56 gears from trucks. Since the carrier was in the wrong location for the 4.56, the aftermarket supplied a ring gear spacer to do the same job. I have been told...(but have not been able to find ) that a STANDARD rotation thick 4.56 ring gear. It makes perfect sense that someone would make them, but I haven't found anything in the past 10 years.

Hope that clears it up for you.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 6, 2008

jamesroney said:
The reverse rotation Dana 60 Front axle uses only 1 carrier. There is no such thing as a 4.10 and down (or 4.56 and up) when talking about a reverse rotation, high pinion Dana 60 front drive axle.

Unfortunately, the carrier used in the reverse rotation front axle just happens to be EXACTLY the same as the carrier used in the standard rotation housing for 4.10 and down. Thus all the confusion. The carrier for the 4.56 and up standard rotation housing moves the ring gear about 3/16 inch closer to the pinion centerline so that smaller diameter pinion gears can use reasonable thickness ring gears.

In order to accomodate the smaller pinion diameter on the high-pinion, Dana elected to simply add material to the ring gear, instead of using a carrier with the different offset.

Now, to make things a little more complicated...the dana 60 was factory equipment on high performace Dodge muscle cars. The lowest gears available from the factory was 4.10...so no problem. Some hot-rodders wanted to go lower, so they used 4.56 gears from trucks. Since the carrier was in the wrong location for the 4.56, the aftermarket supplied a ring gear spacer to do the same job. I have been told...(but have not been able to find ) that a STANDARD rotation thick 4.56 ring gear. It makes perfect sense that someone would make them, but I haven't found anything in the past 10 years.

Hope that clears it up for you.

This simply is not true. All Dana 60 housings use the exact same carriers whether high pinion or low pinion. The high pinions have the same gear break as low pinions. The thick gears are available so that you do not have to change carriers. Because they only make thick gears for reverse cut high-pinion axles, and because they are only found on front ends, they will never see more than half the available drive torque, and therefore the manufacturers don't fear warranty issues with the added stress on the ring gear bolts. Standard thickness reverse cut gears are available from all manufacturers for 4.56 and lower to be used on the 4.56 and lower carrier in the high pinion axles.

Edit: Hmmmmm. Maybe not all ratios are covered by the thin gears as I thought. But some definitely are.

vetteboy79 · Feb 6, 2008

There's no such thing as a reverse rotation Dana 60; they all spin the same way.

Just wanted to clear that up. :flipoff2:

For that matter, they're not reverse-cut either...only thing that changes is the spiral direction.

I wasn't able to find any thick gears for the low pinion axles when I had to regear mine.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 6, 2008

They don't make thick low pinion gears. Only reverse cut thick gears which when originated were for use in front ends only that should never see but half drive torque. That's not true any more with twin stick cases and high pinion rears, but thick gears was a cheap way of gearing down a front end w/o have to buy a second carrier when going over the split, and safe because of the lower torque.

Are you saying when they cut the gears, the machine was going in the same direction?

Reverse cut gears may not be going reverse from low pinion gears when on the front end, but they sure are rotating in reverse. Look at how the top of the ring gear rotates towards the cover and not the pinion when going forward. If it were on the rear, that would be reverse.

vetteboy79 · Feb 6, 2008

There are such things as "reverse rotation" axles, one thing I can think of is the front axle of some old GM military trucks. The ring gear is on the opposite side of the pinion, compared to standard rotation axles. So if you're looking at the yoke, and spin it counter-clockwise (like a normal front axle), it'd turn the opposite way of a Dana/GM/Toy/etc axle.

High pinion and low pinion axles both turn the same direction for a given input...so whether you're using it in a front or rear application, it's not doing anything 'reverse' just because it's a high pinion.

Brokagain · Feb 6, 2008

JGVABronco78 said:
They don't make thick low pinion gears.
Reverse cut gears may not be going reverse from low pinion gears when on the front end, but they sure are rotating in reverse. Look at how the top of the ring gear rotates towards the cover and not the pinion when going forward. If it were on the rear, that would be reverse.

My low pinion front d60 rotates the same way. Then would it be considered reverse cut also? I know "reverse rotation" is a misnomer, but it's not the same as low pinion.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 6, 2008

Brokagain said:
My low pinion front d60 rotates the same way. Then would it be considered reverse cut also? I know "reverse rotation" is a misnomer, but it's not the same as low pinion.

I didn't say anything like that. All front ends, high and low pinion, are rear ends turned around, and when they are going forward they are being run in reverse. That's reverse rotation, but there is no diferentiation between high or low pinion, or standard cut or reverse cut gears, so yes, "reverse rotation" is a misnomer.

Edit: In light of the confusing nature of this relationship between front and rear ends, and in light of the fact that true reverse rotation axles are now a part of the discussion, what I call reverse rotation in this post would be better defined as "reverse operation".

jamesroney · Feb 7, 2008

JGVABronco78 said:
This simply is not true. Because they only make reverse cut gears in the thick version, .

Ok, I will TRY to make this easier to understand.

1. IF they only make reverse cut gears in the thick version, (which they do) then that means that THERE IS NO CARRIER SPLIT for the High pinion dana 60. To make it simpler, in a high pinion dana 60, the only carrier that will EVER be found happens to be the same as the dana 60 low pinion in 4.10. If there is only one carrier that fits in a housing using the gears that are available...then there is only ONE carrier.

2. The notion that high pinion drive axles are somehow weaker is a misunderstanding. To put it simply, just look at the pinion from the side. In the rear axle, the pinion PUSHES on the bottom of the ring gear. Meaning that if you apply torque to the input of the pinion, it will try to PUSH it self out of the housing. On a High pinion dana 60, in the rear, the pinion is PULLING on the ring gear. As the pinion centerline approaches the axle centerline, the amount of thrust approaches zero. At the very top and very bottom of the ring gear the thrust is maximized. This is why the 9 inch is a much weaker high pinion than the 60. Driving forward, the Dana 60 low pinion in front axle applications is PULLING on the pinion. This is the only part of your statement that is accurate. However, driving forward, the Dana 60 high pinion is in fact PUSHING on the ring gear, on the strongest part of the tooth. So, driving FOWARD, the strongest option is to have a low pinion in the rear, and a high pinion up front. THAT is why the Ford engineers did it.
3. A thicker ring gear in no way increases the shear loading on the retaining bolts. You might argue that the combined stresses are higher, but you need a better model. As the torque increases, the force vector on the ring gear tries to spread it away from the pinion. This in fact INCREASES the clamp force against the carrier. So the thicker ring gear means nothing...except it is heavier.
4. The helix on the pinion of the high pinion is opposite to that of the low pinion. When you place them side by side, one appears to twist clockwise, and the other appears to twist counter-clockwise. Thus the reverse-rotation nomenclature. It has nothing to do with which way the drive axle rotates when the pinion is rotated. It is more accurately high pinion, reverse helix. This is necessary to keep the pinion on the same side of the carrier. If you can imagine a ford 9 inch REAR axle, and simply install the housing upside down 180 degrees. Turning the driveshaft clockwise would normally push on the bottom of the ring gear, and propel the car forward...but when inverted, turning the driveshaft clockwise would push on the TOP of the ring gear, and propel the car in REVERSE. So you really DO need reverse rotation. The only reason why it seems otherwise is because Dana chooses to put the pinion on the same side of the carrier. So do you still think "reverse rotation" is a misnomer?

5. So if you re-read my original post, you will see that everything I said is factually accurate, and but I believe I am right about this one.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

James, I guess you are talking to me? I never mentioned anything about pulling, pushing, stronger, weaker anything. All I said was that thick gears were ok on front ends because they were not intended to be used alone(w/o rear end on duty), so the extra stress on the thick gears was tolerable. Extra stress in the form of point of pressure being farther from the mounting flange producing a higher theoretical bend moment on the ring gear bolts. This lighter duty was also a factor in just the fact that they could use rear ends in reverse for front ends to start with, given the fact that the pinion thrust was now being held by the smaller outer pinion instaed of the larger inner pinion bearing as they were designed to be. The whole idea of developing the high pinion/reverse cut gear differentials was so front ends would be as durable in service as rear ends were designed to be. I believe the thrust was probably the primary issue for improvement, and not neccesarily just whether the normal force was on the concave or convex side of the teeth.

Also, I just did a quick shopping trip on the internet. I found standard thickness reverse cut gears in 4.30, 4.88, and 5.38. I'm pretty sure they were normal thickness because they were listed along with thick gears of the same ratios clearly marked as such. Randy's oddly enough wasn't listing any Yukon gears other than thick, but they did have some U.S. Gears, and I found some ebay vendors with Yukon standard thickness in 4.30 and lower. Didn't search the OEM, but I've always thought they made them as well. In fact, while not sure, I find it hard to believe Dana would make thick gears and warranty them. I'll give it some more research.

Another thing from your original post. A spacer is certainly a cheap way to put deep gears in a 4.10 case, but I think if I had a 440/Hemi car, I'd want to rebuild the right sized truck power-loc with the 30-spline side gears if I expected to have it last. I never thought about it much, but are you saying that they didn't offer the size 4 carriers in 30-spline until 1975 or so when the trucks went 30-spline. I've only been hard into these Dana 60's for about 4 or 5 years so I can't really follow there evolving time-line, but most of what you are saying comes as a surprise to me since the carriers are now readilly available for all sizes and spline counts.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

vetteboy79 said:
There are such things as "reverse rotation" axles, one thing I can think of is the front axle of some old GM military trucks. The ring gear is on the opposite side of the pinion, compared to standard rotation axles. So if you're looking at the yoke, and spin it counter-clockwise (like a normal front axle), it'd turn the opposite way of a Dana/GM/Toy/etc axle.

High pinion and low pinion axles both turn the same direction for a given input...so whether you're using it in a front or rear application, it's not doing anything 'reverse' just because it's a high pinion.

If you just added 1 drive gear to the main shaft to run a front output, the front output would turn the front shaft the same relative direction(cw towards its pinion) as the rear, because of the way its facing opposite of the rear pinion. Even number of gears reverse direction, odd number of gears maintain direction. Using the opposite side of a gear also reverses direction of rotation of its driven unit. Now, because the front needs to run in reverse, the single drive gear would not be ok, unless you have a reverse rotation front axle, like in the military truck you described. The idler gear in our tcases maintains a reverse rotation of the front shaft. The 3 gears provide the same rotation as the drive direction, but opposite because using opposite side of gear on our front outputs, so the front axle that is running in reverse is now ok again. The addition of the idler gear also afforded them the ability to add an additional low gear similar to a standard transmission

You are correct about the ring gear right/left thing. All American mfr's that I know of have the ring gear to the right of the pinion, and the only way to make a reverse rotation axle, when the input shaft is turning cw, would be to put the ring gear to the left of that pinion.

jamesroney · Feb 7, 2008

JGVAbronco78,

I thing we are in general agreement...and I'm happy to be proven wrong.
1. The ring gear to carrier attachment bolt might see more stress. But consider that the thick D60 gears are thinner than standard 9 inch gears.

2. If you can find standard thickness OEM high pinion gears in any ratio numerically higher than 4.30 then I am wrong about the carrier split. I THINK that the Yukon and others are actually all thick.

3. Yes about the track pack cars, and you could certainly pull 30 spline side gears out of a 1966 Ford F100 w/Dana 60...so 30 spline side gears existed. But don't forget that in 1972, a B or E body track pack car was cheap. Mr. Gasket, Moroso, and lots of others have sold a bunch of ring gear spacers. I agree 100% that a carrier swap is the better way to do it. But some people are cheap.

I am changing the gears in my 71 Bronco from 4.10 to 4.56. It is a std rotation D60 with ARB. A new ARB is $750+. I am seriously thinking of using a ring gear spacer...

By the way, the only possilble way to build a hypoid gearset in a rear axle is with the pinion to the "right." (from the cover side) If you face the pinion yoke, and rotate the pinion clockwise, the left side of the gear goes UP, and the right side goes DOWN. You need to push the front of the ring gear down in order to propel the vehicle forward.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

James, we are in agreement that the reverse spiral gears push the pinion against the large inner bearing when going forward on a front end like ought to be the case, like the way it is in the rear end.

Not trying to rub it in, but I can see you are open minded, so consider this. Why would there even be a need to call them "thick" gears if there weren't a thin or normal gear to distinguish it from to start with. They would just be reverse spiral gears that happen to be thicker because they needed to be to reach the smaller pinion. They are designated "thick" so that they do not get confused with normal gears of the same ratio for an appropriate size carrier.

As far as the ring gear needing to be on the right of the pinion, when looking at it from the pinion side, in order for a rear end to go forward when turned clockwise, that is the point exactly. If the ring gear were on the left, the pinion would now need to turn CCW in order for a rear axle to go forward. That's what the true reverse rotation front axle we were discussing was doing. The pinion was turning CW, so that the axle was going in reverse(which is forward for a front end).

jamesroney · Feb 7, 2008

JGVABronco78,

I don't mind taking the darts, because I can see that you are reasonable, and fairly intelligent. Also, you support your assertions with valid data and decent theory.

However...

The reason for the descriptors (thick, thin, and reverse) is so that normal people can differentiate between the two items without using reference material or labels or part numbers. For example, if you have two 41/9 tooth OEM gear sets on the bench, they can be easily identified by their thickness. The thick one will be for High Pinion, and the thin one will be low pinion. Of course they will also have reversed spiral, but most normal people don't know which is the correct spiral, so..."thick" is an easy differentiator.

The same is true for the pinion. If you have a 9 tooth OEM pinon with a LH helix, you and I know that it is a low pinion application. If it happens to be a RH helix, then it is a High pinion application. Almost every rear axle pinion on the planet has a LH helix, so when you are trying to differentiate between a HP and LP, the one that is oddball reverse helix is the HP one.

If you choose to run a single gear reverser for the front driveshaft, then axles are easy to find. Just invert a LP 60. Makes it a standard rotation, High Pinion Front Dana 60. (as opposed to "reverse rotation")

Any luck finding an OEM 4.56, 4.88, 5.13, 5.38 thin HP gear set? I hate to be right ALL the time...

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

jamesroney said:
Any luck finding an OEM 4.56, 4.88, 5.13, 5.38 thin HP gear set?

Haven't looked yet. I'll post the p/n's when and if I find them.

The real gear designations are:
Standard gears: for rear ends and low-pinion front ends(no thick offered)
Reverse spiral: for high pinion axles
Reverse spiral thick: for keeping size 3 carrier(ok by some mfr's because front end)

In my opinion, this is the best way to describe what is actually available, and how it should be distinguished.

And btw intheworks, in case you didn't catch your answer in the very first response, and assuming you have a low-pinion housing like it sounds like, then you need a size 4 carrier, for 4.56 gears and down(higher numerically) if you want to run the standard 5.38's you were asking about. That or a ring gear spacer which I do not recommend. All Dana 60 rears are standard cut unless special made high pinions. Only high pinion fronts use reverse gears. Low pinion fronts are nothing more than a rear end turned around and ran backwards.

jamesroney · Feb 7, 2008

JGVABronco78 said:
The real gear designations are:
Standard gears: for rear ends and low-pinion front ends(no thick offered)
Reverse spiral: for high pinion axles
Reverse spiral thick: for keeping size 3 carrier(ok by some mfr's because front end)

In.

I submit:
The real gear designations are:
Standard gears: for rear ends and low-pinion front ends(no thick offered)
Reverse spiral: for high pinion axles, 4.56+ made thick for keeping size 3 carrier. (no thin offered)
Which means: "There is no carrier split for high pinion D60 axles."

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

jamesroney said:
I submit:
The real gear designations are:
Standard gears: for rear ends and low-pinion front ends(no thick offered)
Reverse spiral: for high pinion axles, 4.56+ made thick for keeping size 3 carrier. (no thin offered)
Which means: "There is no carrier split for high pinion D60 axles."

You are going to make me work for this one aren't you?

jamesroney · Feb 7, 2008

Yeah, but I may have tripped over my own dick here.

Near as I can figure, the ONLY factory gears for the HP Dana 60 is the 700042-1, (3.73) and 700042-2 (4.10) Both using the 706703X carrier...(or 706682-2 trac lok) & also 1999+ 4.30's of course.

I can't seem to find an application for the 4.56, 4.88, 5.13, and 5.38 except in the aftermarket.

I need to go do more research.

JGVABronco78 · Feb 7, 2008

Here's some links: To my surprise, the second link shows gears that appear to have OEM(Dana) packaging in the highered numbered ratios available in only thick. The rest of the links show both thick and thin from different drive train supply shops. 4.88 and 5.38 seem to be the only universally available sizes above 4.30 in thin.
http://www.differentials.com/pdfs/13.pdf

http://www.drivetrainspecialists.com/categories/randp/dana-60-2.html

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3731

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3750

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3827

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3730

http://www.ringpinion.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProdID=3749

dana 60 ? carriers 4:10&down. 4:56&up

intheworks

Rocco

jamesroney

JGVABronco78

vetteboy79

JGVABronco78

vetteboy79

Brokagain

JGVABronco78

jamesroney

JGVABronco78

JGVABronco78

jamesroney

JGVABronco78

jamesroney

JGVABronco78

jamesroney

JGVABronco78

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