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Anyone built an EFI system for an early motor using gen III electronics?

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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Wider by a bunch will be a problem. I'm using a jeep saginaw box from PSC. I did understand what you meant with your picture, but not being familiar with the physical size differences I couldn't really say if it would work.

I'm looking for a reliable 400+ hp, hopefully using as much of the $$$$$$ and time that I've already invested into my current gen I motor. Now if I could do a 6.0 swap for the same as what one of these setups would cost me...maybe. But all told in terms of simplicity (read time) and expense I don't see it
 
#22 ·
Wilson said:
Wider by a bunch will be a problem. I'm using a jeep saginaw box from PSC. I did understand what you meant with your picture, but not being familiar with the physical size differences I couldn't really say if it would work.
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Ahh... so you are running the just behind the front bumper style:D I don't recall seeing any build info on your cruiser so commends are psuedo by feel ;)

By the numbers I provided, the gen 3 is a hair over 1" wider... or 1/2" per side roughly. Might make it closer to your steering shaft depending upon your header choice.

Wilson said:
I'm looking for a reliable 400+ hp, hopefully using as much of the $$$$$$ and time that I've already invested into my current gen I motor. Now if I could do a 6.0 swap for the same as what one of these setups would cost me...maybe. But all told in terms of simplicity (read time) and expense I don't see it
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I think it would be a wash in terms of price(especially if you factor in selling your current engine)... but a gain with the 6.0 in terms of less of an adjusting nightmare. In stock form, the low compression 6.0(LQ4) is 325hp. Once you add in headers, an intake, and a tune, I'm sure you'd be close to your 400 number and super reliable because it is 99% bone stock:smokin: A cam and intake are supposed to REALLY wake the truck engine up.

I definitely understand the time and $$$ already invested. Very hard to drop what you've already got... played that on my current rig:emb:
 
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#24 · (Edited)
really sounds like you have been using sheoot tuners..

Big stuff 3 and job spetter are two things for you to google..he can have you dead on within 2%.

id look on the mustang boards for a gen 6 or 7 dfi unit. then get it setup by a real tuner. using a dyno actual drive time andmost important a wide band o2 sensor..You dont need sequential for your setup.. milage isnt a concern. Batch fire will work plenty..

If you want to save cash then use tpi stuff.. you may have to go with an alpha n setup depending on your cam. Without knowing the specs on your motor i cant really pinpoint what you will need for fual and air.How far down the hole the piston is and deck height with cam specs would be helpfull.
 
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#25 ·
I agree a good tuner makes the project much easier but it's not impossible to do yourself either. I've been really happy tuning myself using EFILive and their custom 2bar OS on my camaro. It only takes a little research to come up with the basics of what to do. Add an O2 sensor, do some logging and the software does the rest. You also have the option of installing the optional realtime programmer, roadrunner, if you want to make changes on the fly.

The LQ engines are the shnizzle! Easy power in a compact and light package. Once you own, you won't want anything else.
 
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#26 · (Edited)
Wilson said:
bugs are truley a 4 letter word to me. I don't mind a litttle tinkering and some adjsutments here and there, or dropping it off for an hour or two of dyno time and never having to f with it again. But megasquirt seems a bit too much of piecing things together (I know it sounds contradictory considering the root of this thread). I'm not sure what I would save or what the benefits would be if I was looking for similar performance to what the pro flo 2 offers?

I don't know much about it, but from the searching I've done it doesn't quite fit what I'm looking for as it's not factory based in any sense of the word and the "kits" are not as complete as say the pro flo II. Maybe I need some more re-edumacation on the matter though? What Intake/ throttle body/ plenum/ injector setup would you use for a 400-500 hp small block that can rev to say 6500 with megasquirt?
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IMHO, you're a fool if you actually think you'll have less problems trying to hack together a system using late model stock GM electronics on an early motor than you would have with megasquirt.

Megasquirt is designed around using stock GM sensors. If you want to use other sensors then you would have to change this. Seeing as how we are discussing using this on a GM motor I see no reason why you would.

Why are you bent on having something "factory based"? What are you going to gain from it?

For an induction system I'd just look at the TPI intake and throttle body stuff if you're looking for something on the cheap. Otherwise there are plenty of carb style intakes with injector bosses cast into them that you could choose from if you need more flow and/or different packaging. You're going to have to do the calculations for injector size, but I'd guess that for that kind of power you'd probably be looking at the 30-40 lb/hr range if you're running gasoline. EDIT: You could even run TBI if you really wanted to with megasquirt, although I think that would limit your power.

There is absolutely no reason a megasquirt can't handle what you're looking to do, you just have to research it. If you don't want to do the research then you're better off buying one of the turnkey kits and paying someone to install it for you IMHO, because no matter what aftermarket EFI setup you go with you're going to have some quirks to work out.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
mondtster said:
IMHO, you're a fool if you actually think you'll have less problems trying to hack together a system using late model stock GM electronics on an early motor than you would have with megasquirt.

Megasquirt is designed around using stock GM sensors. If you want to use other sensors then you would have to change this. Seeing as how we are discussing using this on a GM motor I see no reason why you would.

Why are you bent on having something "factory based"? What are you going to gain from it?

For an induction system I'd just look at the TPI intake and throttle body stuff if you're looking for something on the cheap. Otherwise there are plenty of carb style intakes with injector bosses cast into them that you could choose from if you need more flow and/or different packaging. You're going to have to do the calculations for injector size, but I'd guess that for that kind of power you'd probably be looking at the 30-40 lb/hr range if you're running gasoline. EDIT: You could even run TBI if you really wanted to with megasquirt, although I think that would limit your power.

There is absolutely no reason a megasquirt can't handle what you're looking to do, you just have to research it. If you don't want to do the research then you're better off buying one of the turnkey kits and paying someone to install it for you IMHO, because no matter what aftermarket EFI setup you go with you're going to have some quirks to work out.
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LOL, I'll respond when I have more time.
 
#29 · (Edited)
To get around the CFM limitations of the TBI systems, you could use one of the DynamicEFI EBL modified GM systems. They can be had with an additional two injector drivers so you could run dual throttle bodies.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
mondtster said:
IMHO, you're a fool if you actually think you'll have less problems trying to hack together a system using late model stock GM electronics on an early motor than you would have with megasquirt.

Megasquirt is designed around using stock GM sensors. If you want to use other sensors then you would have to change this. Seeing as how we are discussing using this on a GM motor I see no reason why you would.

Why are you bent on having something "factory based"? What are you going to gain from it?

For an induction system I'd just look at the TPI intake and throttle body stuff if you're looking for something on the cheap. Otherwise there are plenty of carb style intakes with injector bosses cast into them that you could choose from if you need more flow and/or different packaging. You're going to have to do the calculations for injector size, but I'd guess that for that kind of power you'd probably be looking at the 30-40 lb/hr range if you're running gasoline. EDIT: You could even run TBI if you really wanted to with megasquirt, although I think that would limit your power.

There is absolutely no reason a megasquirt can't handle what you're looking to do, you just have to research it. If you don't want to do the research then you're better off buying one of the turnkey kits and paying someone to install it for you IMHO, because no matter what aftermarket EFI setup you go with you're going to have some quirks to work out.
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This is an answer I expect from someone running megasquirt.....they think it's the best thing out there. I understand the idea, it's a modular setup, you can build your controller how you want, piece together the components how you would like, and it's pretty universal.

However, it requires a lot of effort and still relies very heavily on programming and calculations. I don't know much about the gen III stuff, but I was really hoping there was already a way to setup something like a ramjet or a marine-based setup like turn key is using. It's my not very educated opinion that those controllers are much more powerful than your run of the mill mega-squirt and I don't really want to be that in-depth with my programming. I see the contradictions in my original question and turning away from megasquirt, but I suppose I may just not have posed the question correctly.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Mechanos said:
To get around the CFM limitations of the TBI systems, you could use one of the DynamicEFI EBL modified GM systems. They can be had with an additional two injector drivers so you could run dual throttle bodies.
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TBI just puts a bitter taste in my mouth. It will do the job, but that's about it, from what I've seen. There are things it doesn't seem to do that I would like. It's not a very performance-oriented or efficient setup, by design. It does nto automatically compensate for altitude. It's a cheap and easy way to go for people with relatively stock motors. At the level my current motor is at and the power I'd like to see; I just don't see throttle body being the answer. A part of me does wish I'd just bought much closer to stock heads, but I didn't. It was a chance to upgrade, so I took it and I've been dealing with fueling them since.
 
#33 ·
Wilson said:
This is an answer I expect from someone running megasquirt.....they think it's the best thing out there. I understand the idea, it's a modular setup, you can build your controller how you want, piece together the components how you would like, and it's pretty universal.

However, it requires a lot of effort and still relies very heavily on programming and calculations. I don't know much about the gen III stuff, but I was really hoping there was already a way to setup something like a ramjet or a marine-based setup like turn key is using. It's my not very educated opinion that those controllers are much more powerful than your run of the mill mega-squirt and I don't really want to be that in-depth with my programming. I see the contradictions in my original question and turning away from megasquirt, but I suppose I may just not have posed the question correctly.
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FWIW, I have nothing that runs megasquirt (currently at least) nor do I think it is the best thing out there. I do however feel that it is the best thing out there for the price. You can buy a megasquirt kit for less than $200 and have a programmable EFI setup on your rig for the same or less than what most people would likely spend doing a TBI setup.

Any of the good, flexible, tunable aftermarket EFI solutons are going to require roughly the same amount of work as megasquirt (aside from soldering all the parts on the board if you don't buy a completed unit). Regardless of what you buy you're looking at getting the unit to recognize your crank and/or cam position signals, control your spark, etc. I have worked with several different controllers over the past several years and I just see the value in the Megasquirt for the average user who doesn't want something that has more controls than the space shuttle.

Now that you explain what you're looking for (an EFI setup that basically requires no tuning or setup) your reasoning for not being interested in Megasquirt makes sense. I really think you're going to be very hard pressed to get what you're looking for and end up being satisfied with it unless the unit is optimized on your exact engine combo. I haven't seen a plug and play setup yet that couldn't stand to be tweaked a bit.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
mondtster said:
FWIW, I have nothing that runs megasquirt (currently at least) nor do I think it is the best thing out there. I do however feel that it is the best thing out there for the price. You can buy a megasquirt kit for less than $200 and have a programmable EFI setup on your rig for the same or less than what most people would likely spend doing a TBI setup.

Any of the good, flexible, tunable aftermarket EFI solutons are going to require roughly the same amount of work as megasquirt (aside from soldering all the parts on the board if you don't buy a completed unit). Regardless of what you buy you're looking at getting the unit to recognize your crank and/or cam position signals, control your spark, etc. I have worked with several different controllers over the past several years and I just see the value in the Megasquirt for the average user who doesn't want something that has more controls than the space shuttle.

Now that you explain what you're looking for (an EFI setup that basically requires no tuning or setup) your reasoning for not being interested in Megasquirt makes sense. I really think you're going to be very hard pressed to get what you're looking for and end up being satisfied with it unless the unit is optimized on your exact engine combo. I haven't seen a plug and play setup yet that couldn't stand to be tweaked a bit.
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That may be true. With some time, I got the TBI to where I was reasonably happy with it, to the point I began pulling rocker studs out of my heads. After the second round (3 of them that time) I felt it was time to upgrade the valvetrain and opened pandora's box as it turned out.

Again, I'm happy with how the propane works and runs..but I'm not happy with the sacrifice of convenience, fuel economy and the precious storage space in my Fj40. I'd like to get it back to dual purpose and realize I'll ahve to pay a premium to keep my performance level adn hopefully alleviate some tuning headaches.

I'm prety sold on the mass-flow setup. I spent some time on the phone today adn will call again witha few more questions. Seems not many people have run the kit, but I have yet to find anything saying it doesn't do what they claim.
 
#37 ·
Wilson said:
TBI just puts a bitter taste in my mouth. It will do the job, but that's about it, from what I've seen. There are things it doesn't seem to do that I would like. It's not a very performance-oriented or efficient setup, by design. It does nto automatically compensate for altitude. It's a cheap and easy way to go for people with relatively stock motors. At the level my current motor is at and the power I'd like to see; I just don't see throttle body being the answer. A part of me does wish I'd just bought much closer to stock heads, but I didn't. It was a chance to upgrade, so I took it and I've been dealing with fueling them since.
Click to expand...
Ummm.... yes it does. At least the GM systems do. I have personally taken my rig with GM TBI setup (on an International mill) from about 1000 ft. where I live up to about 12,000 ft. without even so much as a sputter or hint of running rich. I think you need to do a little more research.....
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
Mechanos said:
Ummm.... yes it does. At least the GM systems do. I have personally taken my rig with GM TBI setup (on an International mill) from about 1000 ft. where I live up to about 12,000 ft. without even so much as a sputter or hint of running rich. I think you need to do a little more research.....
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May have worked for you, but by design (and I've researched this and had a problem with mine) It references barometric pressure, when the key is turned on, engine not running. It then maps fuel based on that reading until it is keyed off and on again. Once the engine is supplying vacuum the MAP sensor can no longer reference barometric pressure.

I've had two TBI based sytems, one of them ran pretty well for a while but TBI can lick my balls.....for waht I want. Bottom line; and it can't be argued is that it is not a performance-oriented design, nor is it an efficient design. It is easy and affective for stock engines.
 
#39 ·
The MAP sensor is not reading engine vacuum, it is readiing the absolute pressure in the manifold which is atmospheric pressure + engine pressure (which is a negative pressure i.e. vacuum). So: MAP = atm press. + eng. press.

Now, under the same load at the same amount of throttle, the engine pressure will be the same whether it's at sea level or at 10,000 ft. However, the atmospheric pressure does change between sea level and 10,000ft. So the value returned by the MAP sensor does indeed change with variations in altitude and since the fuel is mapped off of MAP as well as other variables, the fuel supplied will vary with changes in altitude. By it's very definition, the MAP sensor is constantly referencing atmospheric pressure, not just when the key is on, engine off as you state.

I will agree that TBI is not the best system from a performance standpoint and does have it's limitations and it may not be for you. But your statements about TBI not compensating for altitude are total bullshit.
 
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