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Smiley Racing/Liquid Iron Industries KOH LCQ '10 Build...

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#1,101 ·
I hope that MAST licks your ball after everything they have put you through.
 
#1,102 · (Edited)
While I am waiting on clutches and updated hard parts to come in for the trans I took off the flexplate last night and replaced the rear main seal and the rear panel seal. Neither of them seemed shot but one or both of them were certainly leaking after the oil over heated/pressurized at KOH. Now that I have a Griffin cooler on the oil cooling lines and its up in clean air and we switched to thinner oil, I think engine oil overheating problems are a thing of the past.

I never did post up a picture of the engine oil cooler so here is one. its vulnerable to tree branches so it may get some more protection or moved to a new platform across the "C" pillars eventually. The lower generic cooler we left in place for the race but I don't think its doing much and I will most likely remove it soon so I can relocate the batteries to that spot so you can actually get to them :)
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That Griffin cooler was the power steering cooler and PSC helped me relocate the power steering cooling to an inline Derale finned unit up front. We got rid of 15 feet of hose by moving the cooler up front! I need to swap out the top fitting for a low profile 3/8ths npt to an6 90 to get the hose inside the tube work and maybe tweak the mount. PSC said it cools best run vertical so thats how I mounted it out in fresh air.
Image
 
#1,103 ·
Dave,

Where were you ducting air from on the old cooler? It looks like it pretty much right against the fire wall. I think you will get some benefit from turning it 90 and facing it to the wind. that way you get extra airflow when you are getting it.

Glad you can finally tune the trans. You just mess with the shift points and don't play with the engage/release timing of the shifts right?
 
#1,104 ·
I'm not into that scene :barf: but yes its been way too long fixing this and It was my own stupidity for going aftermarket in the first place. When I first purchased the Mast setup I thought I was getting GM compatible (IE EFILive and HP Tuners compatible) stuff. When I started getting into the system and realized it was all proprietary I knew I was in for trouble but the harness was already installed and we were staring down the barrel of the KOH 2010 gun. I never mentioned this before but I was about to pull the trigger and rip out all the M90/mast ECM stuff and find an e38 and run that. the problem is it wouldn't have necessarily run right out of the box and i would have needed to go to Speartech or Jims performance or a local dyno tuner to get it going. There was just no time.

Don't know if I'll ever build another buggy but if I do, I am not setting any deadline's for completing it. My dad has a sign in his workshop. It says "Why is there never time to do the job right but always time to do it over again". I'm sure it was some cheap trinket from Cracker Barrell but that sure is some sage wisdom :)

zachv said:
I hope that MAST licks your ball after everything they have put you through.
Click to expand...
 
#1,105 ·
whypave said:
I'm not into that scene :barf: but yes its been way too long fixing this and It was my own stupidity for going aftermarket in the first place. When I first purchased the Mast setup I thought I was getting GM compatible (IE EFILive and HP Tuners compatible) stuff. When I started getting into the system and realized it was all proprietary I knew I was in for trouble but the harness was already installed and we were staring down the barrel of the KOH 2010 gun. I never mentioned this before but I was about to pull the trigger and rip out all the M90/mast ECM stuff and find an e38 and run that. the problem is it wouldn't have necessarily run right out of the box and i would have needed to go to Speartech or Jims performance or a local dyno tuner to get it going. There was just no time.

Don't know if I'll ever build another buggy but if I do, I am not setting any deadline's for completing it. My dad has a sign in his workshop. It says "Why is there never time to do the job right but always time to do it over again". I'm sure it was some cheap trinket from Cracker Barrell but that sure is some sage wisdom :)
Click to expand...
eh. just shit luck. You bought something that should have worked. It was the manufacturer that f'd up. At least your were doing everything right and weren't crazy. Now that you will have a correctly built harness it will work fine.

I just wanted to make sure you left the timing alone before you make your new trans look like your old one. Nothing like locking up a shift at speed.:skull:
 
#1,106 ·
Yes that location for the original oil cooler was doomed from the start. it was about 4 inches behind the aluminum firewall so the idea was to pull air coming from below the buggy. But the fan wasn't shrouded and the cooler wasn't in good air really.

If I move the radiator up to a high rear location at some point all my other coolers would go across the front of the buggy much like other ultra 4 cars. But thats a long term pipe dream so I like the way Woodlee does coolers where they are up high in the wind and ducted down from the roof. I would put a pair of bars across my C pillars up over the fuel cell and then mount the trans cooler and oil cooler across there. Lucas' trans cooler location is pretty good too but partially blocked by headrests and my headrests are nearly to the roof.

I know for a fact the oil cooler works well at JV temps now going as fast as I can so it should work well at RC races as well. I will see how this season goes and plan accordingly.

The transmission has an infinite amount of tuning really its pretty cool. you can tell it when to up shift down shift how many gears to jump as well as how to shift at WOT versus part throttle. you can adjust line pressure which is a major item I want to tackle and you can change shift duration as well as program in multiple shift tables that you choose between with a switch. like tow haul mode in a factory vehicle for example.

JTJeep said:
Dave,

Where were you ducting air from on the old cooler? It looks like it pretty much right against the fire wall. I think you will get some benefit from turning it 90 and facing it to the wind. that way you get extra airflow when you are getting it.

Glad you can finally tune the trans. You just mess with the shift points and don't play with the engage/release timing of the shifts right?
Click to expand...
 
#1,107 ·
I've read that timing the shifts is the hardest part to mess with and the most likely to go boom so I am working with a local tuner who's done over 100 6l80 transmissions to make sure I don't make that mistake. I am upgrading the clutches and getting tig welded drums in the new trans and the parts I get from that will be enough to fix my original trans back to a stock spare so hopefully it's one of those if you have it you'll never need it deals :)

JTJeep said:
I just wanted to make sure you left the timing alone before you make your new trans look like your old one. Nothing like locking up a shift at speed.:skull:
Click to expand...
 
#1,108 ·
whypave said:
I know for a fact the oil cooler works well at JV temps now going as fast as I can so it should work well at RC races as well. I will see how this season goes and plan accordingly.

The transmission has an infinite amount of tuning really its pretty cool. you can tell it when to up shift down shift how many gears to jump as well as how to shift at WOT versus part throttle. you can adjust line pressure which is a major item I want to tackle and you can change shift duration as well as program in multiple shift tables that you choose between with a switch. like tow haul mode in a factory vehicle for example.
Click to expand...
I was more worried about packing with mud and losing efficiency. So I figure if you move it might as well turn it too. We found we run hotter at muddy races like RC and SMORR than we do out west. its that extra layer of insulation that gets added to everything.

That is pretty neat. All I know is don't mess with the shift timing unless you know what you are doing or want to invest lots of $$$ (in new trannys) into learning. Sounds like you found someone who falls in the first category.

It would be sweet to put a contact switch to you shifters so your could have a high range table and a low range table like most factory vehicles do.
 
#1,109 ·
When we started off the line at the RCQ 2010 we were in low range because I really didn't know the power the buggy had to crawl in high range. I wanted to be setup for the first rock pile after we made the left hand turn. But the transmission wasn't tuned for low range and in the videos you see this long terribly painful shift from first to second as we were winding it out. A selectable switch or a contact swith on the atlas shifters would be a money way to resolve that. I need to do more testing if there are any advantages to racing entirely in low range. I know we can still get the top speeds we need but since we can crawl the obstacles so far at RCrocs races in high range I've just stuck with high range. But at KOH I could see going from one trail to another in low range but shifting the trans properly in low range.

My first goal is to get the shifts in hi range working flawlessly and quickly and keeping the trans parts internally happy ;)
 
#1,111 ·
With my tree sliders I am not too worried about open wheel racing incidents. But yes that location was strictly one of those its Wednesday morning at KOH and I need better oil cooling where does this fit the best with the hoses I have available and minimal fab. the bottom tab bolts right into an existing tube and I took a cardboard template to Torchmate for the top bracket.

I had one last scrap of an10 hose and two fittings so I made a spare hose to bypass everything external to the oil pan except the filter just in case we needed it at KOH. the transmission made sure we didn't :)

You'd think a week in the desert is enough time to test tune, pre-run and wrench but its really doesn't seem to be :)

I can't say I'll have it changed for April but its on my to do list for sure.
 
#1,113 ·
JTJeep said:
I bet you could do something cool with some contact switched tapped in the back shifter rail cover on the atlas. You will forget to flip a switch in a high stress moment. make it idiot proof.
Click to expand...
Thats a great thought!!! Kinda like a 4 low switch only for shift maps
 
#1,114 ·
Subscribed to this thread after coming across it multiple times. You are a patient man to post all that you have!

Off the current topic, but...

I am researching the oiling system on an L92 I am having put in a new buggy and have a couple questions for you. how did the Kevco oil pan fare at this year's KOH? still leaking? I am debating to go with an cast aluminum or a steel pan. Nervous about throwing rocks into cast aluminum. Do you still have your accumulator in front of the driver's seat?
 
#1,115 ·
Sand Crab. I saw your post earlier in an email but didn't remember to post. I am still running the kevko pan and through a combination of small fixes the engine was no longer leaking from the pan or anywhere else when we got to KOH. due to the engine oil getting really hot (I think due to running too thick of an engine oil) we did have a rear main seal blow by problem at KOH I mentioned earlier but when we pulled the trans I replaced the rear main seal and the rear panel seal and it should be leak free again.

At this point I don't know what to recommend. the fit and finish on the Kevko borders on laughable, but it does work and like you said it won't blow apart like an aluminum pan. Mustard Dog lost his second aluminum pan on his LS engine at KOH.

My accumulator isn't in the cab any more mostly because its in the way for assembly and disassembly and one of my goals this winter during KOH prep was to make the buggy faster to work on. little things like getting rid of all the stainless allen head fasteners that strip like a bitch everywhere and using nutserts rather than blind loose nuts all over the place. The interior came out in half the time to pull the tranny as it did for KOH prep. moving the air filter in the cab and getting the hydro lines out of the cab were a big part of that.

I'm actually not a patient person at all, but I find posting about progress on the buggy is carthartic with all that's happened this last year.
 
#1,116 · (Edited)
Thanks to Ben the transmission is basically rebuilt we just called it quits Thursday night around 3am so we are fresh when we final assemble it. The two aftermarket clutch packs from Alto both required the cluch pack backing plate to be turned down thinner to make up for the extra clutches in the packs. So Clayton and Adam from Clayton Offroad were nice enough to let us use their shop to turn down the two backing plates. I have some pictures and details of the rebuild here.

I got all the parts for the rebuild from Mike Kurtz at Century Transmission. he has built many 6l80 transmissions including ones in Vette's that drag race frequently and are putting 600hp to the rear wheels. He sold me new clutch packs and steels for all 5 of the clutch sets in the 6l80 plus welded the 1-2-3-4 drum and the 3-5-R drum that are just spun welded from the factory. This is a pretty common set of upgrades several companies are offering for the 6l80. Other places insisted on rebuilding the trans for a hefty price. Mike was happy to sell me just the parts and each clutch pack comes with nice instructions.

Here are the welded drum hubs. The one equivelent to the one on the left had clutches welded to it in my old trans after the failure.He did a great job tig welding them and then it appears he blasted them to ensure they are clean and I confirmed with him he spins them up on his lathe after welding to make sure they are still perfectly true after the heat of welding.
Image

Image


Starting with the clutch packs the farthest down in the transmission which we replaced with Raybestos OEM packs, we soaked all the clutches and then installed them in the prescribed order.
Image


Down under the huge snap ring in the trans is the first pack we replaced, the low-reverse clutch pack. Ben is laying out the Raybestos clutches in the right sequence in the big two sided drum that interlocks with the trans case.
Image


Once that was done we turned the unit over to install the 2-6 clutches which are also Raybestos units. The 4 holes in the side are pressure ports for ATF to activate each pack or return fluid
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Here's the unit going back in the trans. It includes a sprag that doesn't press into the transmission case like older trans designs do.
Image


New, freshly soaked 2-6 clutch pack installed and the backing plate and snap ring that retains it. All 5 packs get setup in much the same way and its a lot easier to work on than transmissions with bands to adjust and servos to play with. Also GM makes it easy to setup clearances because they have 5 different thickness snap rings depending on how thick a given set of clutches is.
Image


This hub sits right on top of the pump at the front of the trans and it holds both the 1-2-3-4 clutch packs and the 3-5-R clutch packs. first we installed the Raybestos 1-2-3-4 clutch pack set and then there is a stand off that separates the upper clutch pack as well as applies the upper 3-5-R clutch pack via hydraulic pressure. You can see there are two snap ring grooves at different heights.
Image
 
#1,117 · (Edited)
Here is a picture of the standoff that applies the 3-5-R clutches and the stock 3-5-R clutch stack below it. its upside down from the arrangement in the drum hub pictured above. I am saving all 5 stock clutch packs since they only have 8,000 miles on them and they will be reused to rebuild my 2007 transmission into a stock grade spare unit. It won't quite be stock though because it will have the welded drum hubs.
Image


Here is most of the Raybestos 1-2-3-4 clutch pack reinstalled and ready for the backing plate and snap ring to cap it off. the standoff in the background is flipped over and installed with the tangs in between the openings in the steels of the clutch pack shown here.
Image


The stock 3-5-R pack has 4 double sided clutches for 8 friction surfaces. The Alto Red Eagle upgraded clutches have 12 single sided clutches for 40% more friction material. The new clutch pack is thicker than stock by quite a bit so you don't use the wave plate which is shown just above the standoff in the pic below. You can just make out the gap in the two pieces of metal and that gap is formed by the "wave" in the plate.
Image


Removing the wave plate still isn't enough so Mike from Century specs the thinnest snap ring that will still hold up to all this power that GM has built for various clutch pack thicknesses. in addition to using a thinner snap ring we had to remove about .040" from the clutch pack backing plate. Clayton Walters removed the material on his lathe.
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The 4-5-6 clutch pack is also an upgraded setup from Alto. Rather than 6 double sided clutches, the Alto Red Eagle setup uses 18 single sided clutches with integrated steels. The wave plate for this pack also has to be removed and we turned down the backing plate by .030" as well as used a thinner snap ring that Mike specs.
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Mike also has a billet 4-5-6 intermediate shaft that is much stronger than the stock unit but right now several trans aftermarket companies are still experimenting with how their final upgrades in this area will work. Since the billet shaft is a big expense and I rarely shift into 4th at RC let alone at close WOT, I opted not to upgrade the shaft for now. The final shaft design uses with a smaller clutch hub so that wider profile powerglide clutch packs can be used. I may upgrade to that over the next winter teardown but for now its too experimental and unproven for me to try.

To complement the upgraded transmission I decided to upgrade to a Circle D Specialties Stage 3 Multi Disk torque converter. It has a billet backing plate with a 5 year warranty and it includes one free re-stall. I hope I don't need that and Chris from Circle D and I spent a fair amount of time on the phone going over what I needed and how we use our buggies for racing. It's a 258mm unit so its 10.625" OD versus 12.5" OD for the stock TC and its 38lbs rather than over 50lbs for the stock TC. One of the coolest things about this new TC is that its rated/strong enough to setup the 6l80 to lockup at any RPM up to redline at WOT. So you can be screaming across the desert at WOT and the trans will be in lockup greatly reducing heat build up at 100mph plus :smokin:

Here are a few specs from their website:
100 Square inches of Clutch Lining for WOT Lock-Up
Furnace Brazed
Hand TIG Welded
Torrington Bearings
Billet Front and Billet Piston
3 Element Bearing Design for Longer Clutch Life
Flanged Impeller Hub for Anti-Flex Durability
Hand Assembled to Exacting Tolerances

Here is the new TC on the right compared to the stock unit. The stocker is 1900 stall give or take and the new one is 2600. Supposedly Escalades and Vette's get the same low RPM stall converter to save the General some $$. lots of Corvette owners hate the stock TC so they upgrade to this unit with a relatively low stall to retain DD manners. I don't want a really high stall converter that builds a ton of heat but I also don't like the stock stall that comes in hard in low range at idle and overpowers the brakes.
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This is the billet backside of the TC, note the feet are outboard of the TC body since its 2 inches smaller OD than stock. So its a lot less weight with much less rotational load on the drivetrain.

Image


Hopefully on Monday night we can button up the trans rebuild and get the transmission and interior back in the buggy this week. I'll post some more pics as to how the front half of the transmission goes back together and how the three drum hubs stack inside of one another and inside of the clutch packs. its a pretty slick setup.

Thanks to Ben/CTChevy for his tools, know how and hard work in rebuilding the trans and to Clayton Offroad for the machine work!
 
#1,118 ·
Dave, once again you do such a great job with your write ups/pictures!

See you in a few weeks
 
#1,119 ·
Thanks for the feedback. I was at KOH all week this year as a volunteer. Saw your rig a few times. It's interesting, as a spectator/volunteer we are mostly oblivious to all the issues that the racers are working through to make the race. That is until we start we start putting a rig together and threads like your become very helpful to see all the "little" considerations that go into a build.

Trying to get the oil system right the first time, but right looks like it will be a compromise between two imperfect choices as far as the pans go.

Thanks again.

Kevin



whypave said:
Sand Crab. I saw your post earlier in an email but didn't remember to post. I am still running the kevko pan and through a combination of small fixes the engine was no longer leaking from the pan or anywhere else when we got to KOH. due to the engine oil getting really hot (I think due to running too thick of an engine oil) we did have a rear main seal blow by problem at KOH I mentioned earlier but when we pulled the trans I replaced the rear main seal and the rear panel seal and it should be leak free again.

At this point I don't know what to recommend. the fit and finish on the Kevko borders on laughable, but it does work and like you said it won't blow apart like an aluminum pan. Mustard Dog lost his second aluminum pan on his LS engine at KOH.

My accumulator isn't in the cab any more mostly because its in the way for assembly and disassembly and one of my goals this winter during KOH prep was to make the buggy faster to work on. little things like getting rid of all the stainless allen head fasteners that strip like a bitch everywhere and using nutserts rather than blind loose nuts all over the place. The interior came out in half the time to pull the tranny as it did for KOH prep. moving the air filter in the cab and getting the hydro lines out of the cab were a big part of that.

I'm actually not a patient person at all, but I find posting about progress on the buggy is carthartic with all that's happened this last year.
Click to expand...
 
#1,120 ·
whypave said:
I'm actually not a patient person at all, but I find posting about progress on the buggy is carthartic with all that's happened this last year.
Click to expand...
Werd!
I walk away some days feeling like I didn't get anything done. Then when I put it in words it really makes it translate to the amount of work it takes to do even small things.

Nice writeups Dave. I plan on pulling my atlas to do the same mods for high range front digs.
 
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