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nothing special old school V8 cj with a twist

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Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
I gusseted at tight as i could to the motor side of the winch and then all the way down and to the back of the winch plate base. sicne that is where the old plate kinked i figured id take no chances i had just started to tack the back half when i took the picture. when it was done being welded its the full length of the back, on both sides plus the bottom is weled for 2-1/2" on the flat surefce and again for 2" on the bottom flat surface and all the way up the bumper and face plate side.

for kicks as a thought while i was building this i left enough room between the frame rail and gusset plate on the passenger side to slip just about any kind of beverage in there, pop gatorade, beer can what ever x2 in depth so that if someone is doing some winching for me they can stuff the controller down in there temporarily, or set their beverage in there and not loose it. i also notched the bumper to winch plate area just enough for the winch hook to have a resting spot that will hold it



driver side i think i could have... maybe should have gusseted a triangle to each side of the base of the gusset not for the strength of the gusset but because where teh gusset joins at teh rear is also where the rear piece of the plate and front piece of the plate are joined together



finished product.... = recessed 8274 though i did mess up i could have mounted it another 1" lower but either way about 2-3/4" inches worth of that winch is now below the top of the frame rails







Shackle angle:




I think i need to move the angle out a little more it almost looks too steep this picture is of it at 70*. i was shooting for a 60* angle, i ended up at 62* after mixing and matching a whole lot of spring packs it gave me a better settled height and imho a better angle 8* is still more down travel when unloaded.



stole an old classic looking cover that i busted years ago, cleaned it up painted it and trimmed it to just house a remote plug in. this way the solenod pack stays out of sight. gives it that old school look doesnt exactly reveal the 6 hp motor, larger XP 9.5 solenoids and oversized cables that are a pain to stuff under the stock late model plastic housing





its all conventional shit, been done a million times one way or another but i figured its somewhat old school stuff, trying to keep it clean and fabbing up everything i can while staying true to some old school stubborn philosophies. keeping it looking as much like a jeep as i can though i think finally giving in on tube fenders might finally get me this year
 
Discussion starter · #23 · (Edited)
ky scrambled said:
HOLY SHIT!! A Jeep build. Looks good man.
Click to expand...

yup this is the jeep forum ;) what'd you expect a tube buggy on coil overs


for the rear i used a set of set of rubicon express 1463 springs......... hind sight as much as this thing weighs i should have got the 1462's to start with. yikes i always forget how heavy this thing is and then mess around with swaping a leaf or two and let them squish down. instead what i did is build a 7 leaf bastard pack using them as the base. they are cheap $110 a pc and work and provide a good base but if i had it to do again it would be the 1462's or even the 1461's that i would have started with. but that is because my rig is heavy in the ass.


i figured id start with these test things out, then this winter i can spend a few bucks on his stuff for the rear.

pictures to follow in the rear i intend to shoot for a 65-60* empty shackle angle and a 55* degree loaded shackle angle we'll see how that settles out


i intend to do a main leaf swap and create a military wrap but for now settled for a AAL. i settled for 2" for stretch beyond what i had previously which was 1" already things looked out of center in the wheel well and outside of the rig visually so all said and done from CJ length to my current stretch i am 3-1/2" longer in the rear and 2-1/2" in the front so with this CJ (since all cj's seem to have different wheel bases this one was 91" when i first got it) i have setteled out at 97" depending on a few more changes I wanted it closer to 100 but realized as i was laying things out that visually with what i have going on it just didnt jive.

I built the tube fenders from scratch with 1-1/2 and the tubing bender started on the 2" flares front and rear then decided the fenders looked better on the white jeep. i'm probably going to just save some money and take the metal cloak easy way out this winter

also plating the front and rear frame rails on the outside with 3/16 plate



still hung up on narrowing the front Dana 61, plan to shave an inch off the bottom while we are at it. but im still hung up wether thats the right choice


picked up 4 mildly used 37" creepies and one never used 37" MTR on PBB $700 whoo hoo



pictures to follow when i get around to it.


like any project it keeps evolving
 
Discussion starter · #24 · (Edited)
Its Pandoras Box, i knew better i should have just done the frame swap. :shaking: or at least lifted the body, i had frame seperation in 8 diffrent spots, cracks that you couldnt see until the paint came off. the wrangler frame is more square and lends itself to the later objective of an ATLAS and dual exhaust the cj frame is just narrow no matter how you cut it but since the front end work is all done and frame plated i guess all i can do now is bitch about my own stupidity for not sticking to the plan.

anyways its coming together the longer rear springs even with the AAL still flex significantly more, im impressed with the decission, i look forward to weighing the pig and dialing in the weight balance of the springs


working on hydroboost lines this weekend, yee haw

welding up the steering box bracket in its new home, drilling the high steer arms to 7/8, putting some Partsmike inserts in and flipping the tierods to the underside of the high steer arms. under full compression i get some contact and since the 61 front isnt going for another year or two ........ you get the idea.
 
Discussion starter · #26 · (Edited)
:D using a chevy early 80s hydraboost PS pump with the return line. the amc PS bracket needs to be ground out, heres a picture of it after i did the grinding and before i have got around to cleaning the aluminium




picture of the pump, you are right dual return lines are the only way to fly, i know some people say that a "T" into the single return line is sufficient but i have had problems with other rigs when i did that, the small amount of back pressure it created was enough to apply the brakes just slightly




picture of the front frame rail being plated. right wrong or indifferent its all one chunk now and im not cutting it off to fix a bad weld. top welds are done in picture, folded the lower lip over with a hammer before welding it. stitched the bottom welded the whole top not in a continuous weld but in stages





sometimes i wish i would have built a 9:1 408 stroker out of a 351 W with some explorer heads, the ford MPFI and a similar lunati roller cam. but that wouldnt be as much fun nor would it be old school at least not in my book.

As to the plating of the frame, reinforcing and general beefing up. I had a crap load of cracks the front half is more or less imho rock solid, plated all the way down to where the frame stretches out to 4-1/2" just below the driver side front body mount. i sucked out and plated a section in the middle behind the belly pan where the mid frame railer had impacted pretty hard and bent. rear half of frame looks good i hope and so far other than where the spring hangers had pulled the frame rails apart

the rear half might need a reinforcing i hope not, it was around the steering box crossmember and around the motor mounts. I also plan on adding an additional crossmember for the shock tabs across the inside of the rear frame rails and jsut a smidge beneath the floor of the rear.

waiting to put the new spring in before i weld up the steering box bracket....... looking to use a wagoneer steering arm and studying my options on arms for the dana 60. trying to setup to run either the 44 or the 60 front without needing to move the box. sure i'll have the option to redrill but if i can avoid that .... its all the better


The 37x12.50R15 Creepy crawlers are a perfect fit for what i wanted. they measure out to right at 36" almost a hair under that. perfect for the layout and opening that i set everything up around. I intend to leave room so that if i ever want to open things up to a true 37" tire or a 38.5 it will be possible but for now everything is seeming to fall into place




More later
 
Discussion starter · #27 · (Edited)
Ok I disassembled my jeep the other night and got some weights for kicks heres a break down on this thing. Best I can do since the jeep is not mobile, ill be interested to weigh it front and rear once its all togehter and see the rolling scale weight per axle

someone might need this crap someday












Power train weight (804 lbs)

Engine weighed 522 lbs measured at time of assembly

Flywheel is 31 lbs


T18 weighed 143 lbs

Dana 300 transfer case weight 87 lbs

Drivelines F&R 21 lbs





Front area: (302lbs)

8274 weighed 82 lbs with fairlead

Front bumper and winch mount weighed 67 lbs

Tube fenders weighed 30lbs each

Dual batteries weighed 43 lbs each (86 lbs total located on passenger firewall)

Air tank weighed 6 lbs

York Air compressor weighed 12 lbs

Steering box 19 lbs





Mid ship drivers and passenger seat area: (692 lbs)

Family style Roll cage using stock center hoop 2" tube onb the balance of the tube work with seats tied in weighed 148 lbs probably will add another 30 lbs with a few more bracing tubes

Rocker guards weigh 41 lbs per side (82 lbs total)

Under front seats Spare axle shafts 43 lbs (soon to be replaced with a 10 gallon fuel tank under the passenger seat)

Spare drivelines 19 lbs

Driver and passenger 400 lbs







Rear: (602 lbs)

Corner body armor Weighs 49 lbs per side (98 lbs total)

Tool box 128 lbs

Cooler weight 112 lbs

camping gear weighs 56 lbs

high lift jack weight is 29 lbs

Fuel tank aft axle 19 gallon steel empty 29 lbs

Fuel weight 150 lbs



Rear bumper (202 lbs)

Rear bumper with tire carrier and gas can holder 41 lbs

gas can 5 gallons 43 lbs

Spare tire and rim on the rear 118 lbs






Center of Rear spring mount to center of shackle frame mount is 49”

Shackles are 4-3/4” center to center.



Like i said should have used the 1462's but i'll manage to make a military wrap and get the height i need
 
Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
ok ran into a snag. after all the front frame repairs and messing around i finally met my match the top of the rear frame was also pulled apart in several spots that i cant get at or plate easily and at this point im pulling the body to make a repair, dropping the tranny/t-case and doing a clutch so as of tonight i wheeled a wrangler frame in and im doing a frame swap, screw this headache.



Got the double military wrapped XJ rear springs close to dialed in


the power steering lines with a 6.5" pitman arm and 6.5" high steer arms and up having major clearance issus with the radiator. itd be better with a wagoneer arm and using the wagoneer or D60 knuckles for steering to move the box further forward. in the process of fabbing a steering box bracket and i have found i'll have to be moving things quite a ways down for my comfort.

give me a few weeks i'll get the frame swap under way and have the tranny here to start fabbing the new belly pan and tranny cross member and figure out what i'll be doing


Sold the faithful, tried and true T18 and dana 300... shame i hate to sell that dana 300 case and gear set it really is a stout combo but the time is now to change and quit clinging onto the old parts
 
#30 ·
Glad you decided to swap the Yj frame in. Should be less of a headache and problems down the road.
 
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Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
finally got a moment tonight to wrestle with it.

off with the old






flipped the frame over and welded a few nuts into the frame holes and added two more for the belly pan when i get to that point


welded up and ground flush the crumple zone holes too.


moved the rear perches




Dabbled with the front springs some too, trying to come up with a military wrap for the wagoneer front springs though i did contemplate making a set of XJ's for the front also im just not sure yet about this idea. the wagoneers at 47 inches are easy give me my 2" stretch etc that i want wheel base wise. ive even thought about installing xjs up front. if i go with the XJ'x they are cheap can be sourced from rubicon express or other sources but with either option i have to fabricate a military wrap at least in my opinion I should since the shackle is in front also with the xj's i've have a little more screwing around moving the spring mount back a little and probably i will french it into the frame tif i go with xjs. the other option is use a set of Wrangler 4" RE rear 6leaf springs for the front but i need to measure, if i go that route i assume i'll have to move the spring hanger forward to get my axle center location...... thats a cheap option too and might be worth measuring out and seriously considering.



XJ main leaf vs the current version of cobbled together waggy front springs




the low pinion 60 with 4.56's and for the time being the ARB.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
rear springs, was able to get a military wrap in there and put a few extra leaf retainers





salvaged the front bumper and plate fortunately the way i cut it i have just a smidge under 28" worth of material to use so it'll slip right between the wrangler frame rails after i figure out the steering box. the darned yj frame ive got here is 28-1/4" between rails.

Im currently fabbing everything anticipating running a waggy pitman arm to the stock waggy knuckles. my challenge will be anticipating and setting up the steering box bracket/ pitman arm combo to work with the dodge/gm dana 60 knuckles. i believe ball joint to steering arm on the wagoneer is 7.5" IIRC and the Dana 60 knuckles will be 8" king pin to steering arm. with the waggy pitman arm is about the longest ive been able to find that should give me sufficient travel using my current steering setup to get lock to lock out of the dana 60 knuckles.




nothing too exciting but i only had a couple hours and ate up most of it torching crap off.


for the front end i am still contemplating buying a currie HD 9" center section, pressing my tubes out of the dana 61, turning them down and then welding them to the 9 center doing a garage cheap 609 build.......but buying a drop out center and adding up the other crap and still having a so-so pinion offset turns me off. im still trying to find a low profile beefed up compromise from a d44 with a 8.5" ring gear and 19 spline outers and 30 spline inners with dinky bj's to something closer to a D60 without the weight and hang down.

but right now im busy with other crap.
 
Discussion starter · #34 · (Edited)
no pictures tonight too tired got home late after i got the chief supervisor's diapers changed and into bed i slipped in a couple of hours

body is temporary swapped over (eegads i hate doing this shit alone and at night i about herniated myself sliding the body over when one of my sliding board slipped out and the body tipped) anyways im measuring for fuel tank dimensions thinking i can fit nearly 28-30 gallons based on rough measurments with 7-1/2" of hang down below the frame..... drew the template tonight going to ponder it for awhile. still will probably have a friend build a 8-10 gallon +/- under seat stainless tank for reserve on long weekends this motor can be a little thirsty and right now my old home built 19 gallon tank from 8 years ago and spare jerry can aint cutting it for more than 2 days

welded the rear body mount brackets to frame. started figuring out the rear bumper reinforcement bracketry

re thinking the shackle mount, it is definately going down at least and possibly further back and if it looks possible and asthetically right the rear axle might go back another inch. this way a flatter spring can be run to achieve the same height.


got it rolling for the time being.

waiting for the nv4500 to show up so i can make the indexing ring for the bell housing and then dowel and drill the bell, redrill tail housing and bolt the atlas up and bolt it up to the motor then i can get serious about a tranny crossmember engine to body clearance and getting things settled into place

in the mean while i'll check out the clearances around the body. cut and trim, grind the wheel wells in back and then prep the body for paint.

A friend came over last night and suggested that he'd like to try strapping my dana 61 front end into his mill just to see if we can shave it and machine it down to a tight sua perch in the housing. nothing to loose, we screw up i toss it, he's right and it comes out clean i doubt i 'll loose much strength in my application shaving down the extra outside gussets etc. steering is still an issue im open to hear what others have done


10/29 sold the T18 with D300 adapter for $600 this morning ........... now we have some wiggle room
 
Discussion starter · #35 · (Edited)
had a little mishap with the atlas working on fixing it.


anyways not much else for progress going to start on the rear fuel tank hoping for 26-30 gallons i think i can pull it off with the bigger frame
 
Discussion starter · #37 · (Edited)
I didnt like the smaller bushing on the solid mount side due to flipping the wagoneer springs for a stretch. flex wise the main leaf eye to eye was 47" measured with the arch and netted about 3" of lift. If i ever want or need to replace my cobbled together springs i'll be running 44044's most likely then modifying them. this current bastard pack is 24.5" on the hard mount side and 22.5" on the shackle end.


but something caught my attention the other night:

RE1455's are the rear 6 leaf YJ 4" springs. they are nearly 47.5" eye to eye across the arch and 23.25" on the frame bushing to center pin and 24.25" from bushing to center pin on the shackle end. they have a softer spring rate than the 1451's from a CJ, offer a stretch and in a front application settle out to about 3" in this setup and they can be had for $130-150 new per spring quick and cheap, for now i'll paint and run my bastard pack. I have to redrill the second leaf to get the military wrap on the correct end. But thats it and since they are softer they settle out they loose the arch and act more like flatter springs if they sag too much i can swap out the 3rd leaf for one from a cj pack or other application to keep up the load of the v8 and winch ..... as it is i seem to be getting what i need/want for stretch and similar to a Waggy...... longer spring out of an affordable package and just have to move things slightly forward

flex wise the RE packs are acting about the same as the waggys and being nearly the same length they seem to be performing equally at least in the garage test labratories. they both extended to about the same drop. but they compressed a little differently the wagoneer spring compressing slower and not as far as the RE spring did.

FYI some specs from measuring my springs that i have sitting here i might be wrong but heres what i came up with:

How various leafs performed when installed int he front of the YJ frame with a 8274 and the V8 sitting over them

waggy 7 leafs 24.5x22.5 1.5"-2" lift +/-
YJ 4" rears: RE1455 24.25x23.25 3" lift
CJ 4.5" rears: RE1451 23x23 4" lift +/-


For drop and compression the RE1455's and the Waggy 7's seem to travel about the same. the RE1451's are alot more riggid.


thoughts?



As to steering moving the box forward to utilize a waggy pitman arm and crossover with the stock D60 knuckles. no high steer so i dont have any up travel conflicts with the frame. going to drill the frame and sleeve it. lowering the steering box a little to help clear the steering hoses under the radiator.



Fuel tank
34" wide x 17" deep and 13.5" tall with 3" of the 13.5" inset so the upper section will tuck high and tight to the floor and also notched to clear out for the body mounts. made a 5" deep x16" W x 8" tall triangle cut out to clear the rear pumkin due to the current and possible fututure stretches. total capacity 29 +/- gallons. total hang down below the frame 6.5-7" +/-. could have gone a touch wider but this left me some room for other crap as it is i gained 10 gallons in capacity ....... thats huge. still installing an 8-9 gallon tank cell under the front driver side seat for longer (think dusy trail) type trips. passenger side will be impacted by floor cutting to clear the NV4500 and the atlas since im aiming for a flat belly or close to it if a 1" bump has to be made for the nv thats not out of the question.


Motor mounts.
i used 1.5" x 4.5" x 1.5" broke 3/16"steel into a "C". welded to the framerails on both sides. i plated the top and hung it about an inch below the frame rail. drilled both sides to utilize the M.O.R.E mounts that i already had. each side has 6 bolts tieing it to the frame rail. 4 weled in sleeves hiding 3/8x5" G8's across the top, 1 - 3/8x5" G8 on the bottom and then two short 3/8 x 1" G8's on the very bottom bolted straight. The sleeves are 1/8" thick weled on the outside of the frame rail, weled again to the inside of the frame rail then to the inside of the 3/16 "C"........ plated teh top of the C's to the top of the frame rail 2.5" front and back of the C also and gusseted the bottoms forward and back......one big giant welded chunk i'd like to see this crack or break ... its heack of a lot stouter than my old cj frame........

pictures later im not much for cameras some times.


Passenger side (longer one)-NAPA United Brake Parts 93232
Driver's side (shorter one)-NAPA United Brake Parts 92847
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
some pictures from when i first started building the motor mounts prior to plating the tops of them and gusseting the bottoms.

Motor in for second


clamp, drill and tack


going to cut some more out of the floor pan to slip the tranny and t-case a little higher. its not too tuff to make a new tunnel and bolt it in plus the perk will be easy access if i ever have to remove it


tranny hangs about 1/2" below the frame rails currently with a little massaging of the floor i might get it flat yet



prior to giving the brackets a hair cut




unwelded sleeves test fit





where it will sit and i like the fact that it isnt a cradle, it makes slipping the engine in easier because you can swing the mounts in tight to the engine drop the engine a little low and manuver the tranny into place then pull it back up and bolt into place where as with a cradle i always hate the inability to slip a motor a little lwoer then pull it back up while doing an install. personal prefference. also made a brace to stretch from side to side that bolts into place similar to the old CJ engine bar.
 
Discussion starter · #39 · (Edited)





Also noticed that when i reused the rear spring hangers i retained the 3" bolt hole to frame distance. when when it was 6" closer to the tire was no big deal on breaking over ledges now the stock bracket will be a more pronounced rock catcher. using a set of these and cutting into the frame im looking at reducing the hang down by nearly 1-3/4" + the bracket material that hangs below the spring eye on the stock bracket vs these. net height loss will be 1-3/4" of height in the front which i should make up for by lowering the shackle mount in the rear to below the frame. and in my mind on on paper that seems to yeild a net wash. so this way i will have a smooth tapered aproach to the new springs, the springs will be hanging down from the frame at 6" in from the mount as they were with the stock 3" backets. i'll still probably have some breakover issues on some obsticles but this should reduce contact some
 
Discussion starter · #40 · (Edited)
The 608.9 front end

After all my BS and flip flopping the Front axle its going to be a hybrid of a different color


wasnt sure what to call it there is nothing that rolls off the tongue like 609, or 60/44....but its not entirely a 60/44 hybrid its more imho with a jk44 R&P which is a different animal in many regards with the d60 sized pinion shaft, larger ring gear and deeper cut gears it deserves a little more consideration


So Im going to call it a 608.9 since its ring gear is 8.9" and its being matched to D60 outer parts


Ran into some problems with oil filter clearance on the low pinion dana 61 under compression I would have severely limited up travel on the passenger side or i look at a hybrid.....to clearify with the clocked atlas under compression im having starter and oil filter clearance issues. Even when i tried mocking up with a HP 44 (obviously a hp 60 front is out) and trying to offset the pinion away it just looked too tight for comfort. So i'll live with it being just the nature of the beast with an AMC V8 and front output on the passenger side, if i was driverside front output this would be a different discussion and if i wasnt so low it'd also be a different conversation


I was eyeballing a 609 but after a little research im not gaining or loosing much if i do a 44 hybrid since the RD99 air locker shares many parts with the 35 spline dana 44 locker and the pinion offset of the D44 was a little better than the 9" for my passenger side front low pinion application .........the hypoid on the 9" is better for more tooth engagement and stength but the new cut on the jk gears is very similar to that of a 9". Anyways a 3rd member drop out front end is so 2002...... if im going to be old school i got have it look the part and a dana 44 housing just looks like 1992 and therefore nothing special and a slightly modern upgrade with a tiny weenie run of the mill D44 girdled cover keeping it togehter and as a mask hiding the beefed up internals. Anyways I already have dana 44 housing so cost wise its a wash until you add the additional cost of a custom 9" housing and a high strength low pinion drop out, pinion supoport/skid.......



So this is the way the parts have fallen together:



So dug I up a J20 Dana 44 front housing (a la 3" tubes with 1/2" walls) and low pinion

Picked up a new 4.88 JK Dana 44 8.9" ring in pinion (maybe not a ford 9" ring and pinion but close enough and an improvement over a 8.5" lp D44) and install kit. through Carl with Jana enterprises
Welded on the D61 king pin C's
chased down a 35 spline dana 44 ARB that i'll drill out to the larger jk ring ger bolts
narrowing housing so im at a 63.5-64" WMS
Axle seal for the 3" x 1/2" wall D44 tubes to 35 spline shafts Napa #15292
Thinking that maybe alloy 30 spline outers and hubs will be sufficient as an additional fusable link before the carrier ........which i doubt i'll ever face. shoot the RD99 and the D44 ARB's arent much different sharing internal side gears etc and case size, the 9" ARB's seem to survive just fine under most conditions. The other thought is alloy 4340 30 spline outer shafts are stronger according to billavista by just a smidge than a spicer 35 spline stub. i was going to run 35 spline spicer stubs with alloy inners full circle clips and stock spicer joints but after having a few beers with dean at performance cryo im thinking this is the better route.

probably going to run a 1310 yoke as the fusable link on the front and rear drive lines too




What i'm expecting this to end up being is Good clearance, lighter weight, stronger than a dana 44, close to a 609 in strength and in a package that is fairly decieving on the outside.

i'll have no doubts about running sticky 37's or 38's on this setup. granted ive picked my tire size and configuration just saying. sure the front 60 would have been ideal but this way my setup keeps the rig a sleeper somewhat.


thats where things are at right now my self dubbed 608.9 is starting to come together.


A 60/44 hybrid thread that covers a HP combo
 
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