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Discussion starter · #102 ·
Bellydoc,

This is a really impressive build so far!

I am slowly getting my 40 into shape where I can run it pretty hard, rinse it, and drive it to work on Monday. I opted to keep it SOA for simplicity and cost. I still think about doing something similar to yours. I am looking forward to following your build.

What was the biggest driver for your decision to undertake such a major mod? What has been the biggest challenge so far in terms of learning curve or engineering for the 4 link?

Thanks,

Andy
I've had a couple of 4x4's and added aftermarket parts to increase their capability, but I never really felt like I understood the rigs completely, nor that the mechanical "triumph" of their successes were entirely mine.

I really wanted to learn a vehicle completely by building it and make it extremely capable on the trails. I wanted something that needed no compromises in order to accomodate daily driving.

I dove into this based on my own history of undertaking things that were more than I originally anticipated, and coming out the other end of the experience better off for having done it.

I really have no pre-existing skills save for some rudimentary welding and building, and having bolted aftermarket parts onto my other rigs. For me, this is the Mt. Everest of garage projects. Frankly, I couldn't wait to get to the point where I could afford the time and expense to go for this!

I ended up with a linked suspension design after trying quite a few other things out in my head beforehand. I knew I wanted more wheelbase than the 90" stock length. and I started planning on some pretty large parts in the powertrain. In the rear, the XX 4 link logic made the most sense to me... at least before I started cutting metal. I really didn't have the concept fully planned out before I started, though.

I got ahold of a link calculator spreadsheet from a friend who's had quite a bit more experience with these things than I, and his advice was really helpful in getting me started. However, even though the calculator will spit out values for "antisquat%" and "roll axis", it doesn't tell you "Hey! that looks like it'll be perfect... use THAT configuration!"

Unfortunately the literature on suspension designs seems a bit thin in the area of high-articulation trail rigs! Apparently there's no big money in this, and therefore the engineers and the builders are putting all their expensive attention on other suspension types like street rods, or NASCAR. I got a book about chassis and suspension which helped me understand some of the concepts, but the application to offroad wasn't direct.

Target values for the llink calculator have been arrived at by a mix of talking to people who've tried this before and by reading on the internet from places like the Pirate board. Ultimately, I'm ready for the possibility that I'll be redoing aspects of this system later on, once I see how it actually behaves.

Of note, I have to think that events like the KOH can only help to increase the scientific understanding behind crawler designs.

The logic is simple:

Racing brings race fans.

Race fans are paying customers who buy things.

Paying customers attract advertisers.

Advertisers are sponsors.

Sponsors like winners.

Winners require engineers!
 
Thanks for the answers!

It's a great build. I am looking forward to reading your critique after your first run in it.

Interesting theory on the evolution of the sport. I agree that KOH is a fantastic opportunity as the "next big thing". Gotta figure out how to get the fans more involved is all.

awp
 
Cool rig. Not bad for your first build
 
Discussion starter · #106 ·
Thanks for the answers!

It's a great build. I am looking forward to reading your critique after your first run in it.

Interesting theory on the evolution of the sport. I agree that KOH is a fantastic opportunity as the "next big thing". Gotta figure out how to get the fans more involved is all.

awp
Since I don't see anyone building grandstands along the hillsides any time soon, I would assume that it would have to be by way of television.

They had a chase chopper. I bet that was a cool camera angle. They had a few other places with obvious cameras. There could easily have been in-vehicle cameras too.

In many activities, there is something that creates a "tipping point" that changes everything. Usually it involves the mass media. The most important method there is for making something part of peoples lives is showing it to them while they eat dinner. ;)

I'm not being jaded. I'm just being realistic.
 
Nice clean build......:smokin:


Funny, no tats, tuke or giving the camera the finger?









I put two more tabs to take bolts that tie the frame into the half-inch skid plate. These are on the crossmembers. The rear crossmember tab takes bolts which help distribute the force applied by the lower links to the frame. The front crossmember tab takes bolts which help hold the CROSSMEMBER, which I'm now making removable! :)

... that came out confusing.

Here. It looks like this...

New tabs:

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New tabs with bolts (major PITA to drill this all out), and now I'm cutting the crossmember:

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Here I am, happy as a new father that I didn't cheese up the part by cutting it out!

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Now, I'm making a mortise-and-tenon joint to put it back in. It'll be held by 2 half inch bolts in the crossmember itself, and 2 more bolts on the tab to the skid plate. I'll post pictures of that next time.
 
Discussion starter · #108 ·
Nice clean build......:smokin:


Funny, no tats, tuke or giving the camera the finger?

I grew up as a nerdy Jewish kid in Los Angeles.

Now I'm a gun totin', 4 wheel drivin' (Jewish doctor) Arizonan.

Haven't I strayed far enough?
 
Discussion starter · #109 ·
More work to come, this weekend.

I'll be doing double-duty Saturday, as I work on the project and also tend fire on my barbecue ... starting at about 2 or 3 in the morning... which is what I'll need for some 16 hour briskets. The ribs will go on around 8 am.

Oh... yeah... I should probably mention... I take barbecue very VERY seriously.

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I plan to do about 6 racks of ribs and 6 briskets. I normally run the briskets more like 18 or even 20 hours, but these will not be full sized uncut briskets, instead they'll be the partially trimmed market type, but still around 8 or 10 pounds each. The smoked briskets will be ingredients bound for a massive chili cook that will actually occur the NEXT weekend... while I'm at the hammers in my FJ Cruiser. My wife has agreed to help out a group of women from my hospital's staff who are participating in some sort of charity event chili contest benefitting the fire department.

Did I mention that my wife is a chef in training?

Life is good. :)


In the mean time, I'm hoping you folks can supply me with a bit more of the Pirate wisdom that you've helped me with before.

I'm getting close to where I'm going to have to do the front link design.

I'm planning on a 3 link with panhard bar.

I've got the driver's side Ford high-pinion D60.

I was imagining that I'd be doing the upper link on the passenger side.

I'm now hearing an alternate opinion that the upper should actually go to the pumpkin side to "control the weight".

I can kindasorta see how that makes sense, since the upper takes a compressive load to fight axle wrap, and it's really at the pumkin where this matters most.

However, I was really hoping that there would be little or no additional material above the pumpkin because of ride height issues. I still want some uptravel, and if I add a link on top of the pumpkin, I've got to build a truss over the pumkin to accept it, and I'm looking at several inches of material over the pumpkin and under the frame rail. If I then add in another 6 inches of space for up-travel, then the axle will be down away from the frame enough that my ride height will have increased significantly.

For ride height reasons and construction ease reasons, I'd much rather have the single upper link on the passenger side, captured on the axle in a solitary tower.

Is this going to get me into any trouble?
 
Discussion starter · #112 ·
I got distracted on my last few fabrication opportunities because I spiffed up my FJ Cruiser and took it out to the Hammers with All-Pro's IFS Claw Hammer run.

It was a good day.

However, I snapped a CV axle (driver's side).

The next day, I figured out how to swap out a CV axle.

I'd like to get out to the Hammers again to do some of the more serious trails with the money sucking pig when it's done, but I'm afraid I'll have to join the Marines, if I do.

I'd make a fine Marine... except about the part where you have to follow orders.

This weekend will suck... no chance of forward progress.

It's the weekend after THAT where there's a glimmer of hope again.
 
I got distracted on my last few fabrication opportunities because I spiffed up my FJ Cruiser and took it out to the Hammers with All-Pro's IFS Claw Hammer run.

It was a good day.

However, I snapped a CV axle (driver's side).

The next day, I figured out how to swap out a CV axle.

I'd like to get out to the Hammers again to do some of the more serious trails with the money sucking pig when it's done, but I'm afraid I'll have to join the Marines, if I do.

I'd make a fine Marine... except about the part where you have to follow orders.

This weekend will suck... no chance of forward progress.

It's the weekend after THAT where there's a glimmer of hope again.


Wish we would have seen you at the rally:(
 
Discussion starter · #114 · (Edited)
Wish we would have seen you at the rally:(
My partners are out of town, leaving me on Cinderella duty, and that was an operative day. I was completely distracted. I love my job, but sometimes it interferes with real life. ;)

I'm curious though, since I'm relatively ignorant of who the big players are in the debate.

Johnson Valley OHV area is under the administrative control of the BLM as far as I can tell. I would think that for the general population of California, which regards 4 wheeling with some degree of environmental concern, the argument should be that a destination rock crawling spot like the Hammers helps to minimize the impact of similar activities over a wide area. Sacrificing this concentrated region of offroad driving would result in enthusiasts of the sport dispersing their activities over a broad region. One could make the case, even to the detractors of the sport, that preserving the Hammers for 4 wheelers would be in everyone's best interest.

Has anyone actually put on a suit and tie and sat with any bureaucrats and pitched this position?

I went on Google Earth and looked at about a dozen hill systems in the area thinking that they'd end up being turned into trails after a closure.
 
My partners are out of town, leaving me on Cinderella duty, and that was an operative day. I was completely distracted. I love my job, but sometimes it interferes with real life. ;)

I'm curious though, since I'm relatively ignorant of who the big players are in the debate.

Johnson Valley OHV area is under the administrative control of the BLM as far as I can tell. I would think that for the general population of California, which regards 4 wheeling with some degree of environmental concern, the argument should be that a destination rock crawling spot like the Hammers helps to minimize the impact of similar activities over a wide area. Sacrificing this concentrated region of offroad driving would result in enthusiasts of the sport dispersing their activities over a broad region. One could make the case, even to the detractors of the sport, that preserving the Hammers for 4 wheelers would be in everyone's best interest.

Has anyone actually put on a suit and tie and sat with any bureaucrats and pitched this position?

I went on Google Earth and looked at about a dozen hill systems in the area thinking that they'd end up being turned into trails after a closure.
You ought to talk to Greg Mumm of the Blue Ribbon coalition. He is very involved in this topic as well as other proposed trail closures.You have a good suggestion for the California Liberal mentality.Nice job on the build so far.
 
Discussion starter · #117 ·
You ought to talk to Greg Mumm of the Blue Ribbon coalition. He is very involved in this topic as well as other proposed trail closures.You have a good suggestion for the California Liberal mentality.Nice job on the build so far.
Fair enough. I emailed him the question. :)

It would seem to me that if we posed the objection to closure in the form of an environmental concern, we'd at least be able to agitate for an environmental study period. If we could force them to observe the level of utilization (including things like KOH), they might not be so interested in having us doing that somewhere new...
 
Nice work -- couple of quick questions (tried to tell from the pics but not sure).

With the setup as is now can you do the following:
1. remove the Tcase WITHOUT removing the body or transmission, BH, etc. (say to service just it for some reason)
2. remove the entire Tcase, trans, BH - say to change a clutch (in that it needs to come back some then down before removal)
 
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