[nicks90]

I watched as much as possible on TV and felt that some people really need to learn to winch!
Its an important aspect of offroading, just look at team gigglepin UK couple of years ago at KOH. Their winch is heavy, but the tradeoff was they winched up the toughest sections at a fast jog!!! Almost as fast as the guys who managed to drive up - but with much less chance of busting stuff.

The other aspect is codriver winching skills, saw too many hauling the cable like it weighed 20 stone. Ever heard of free spool? And fitness.... Gasping bag of balls struggling with the line over rocks and fumbling about with rigging.....

I know its a different sport, but European challenge events should be watched by crawlers and maybe take some of those principles into crawling for when booting it doesn't work!
Might even be an idea as part of qualifying to put in a timed winching section to ensure the vehicle / team can SAFELY and competently get themselves out of trouble and make progress.

Nick

(Not a keyboard warrior - but a uk based winch monkey)

 

[nicks90]

Before I get flamed - I don't want it to turn in to a winch fest!
I love your events and think they are utterly brilliant as they are. But there is always room for improvement and raising the skills in some areas could have avoided some of the issues experienced this year.

 

[SNORTclown]

OMG!!!! He lives!!!! Are you still building?

Dima

Yep I'm still kicking. Not building. still have tools. DSI has my car... just taking a break from so many years of living the sport. who knows.. the coverage at home is so good now there is no need to go race....maybe in a few years come back in rockin a bitchen skullet and go thrashing in the trails again.

 

[Roc Doc]

A reliable CTIS would go a long way towards eliminating these rock issues. Some cars just won't hook up at race tire pressure, no matter how much throttle you apply. And yes the rear co-dogs need to work together to get the front guys through.

 

[DToy]

This thread sounds like Dave's got a whole new group of VOLUNTEERS for next year! Or are they just keyboard jockeys?! If you are going to criticize the volunteers or staff, put up or shut up!

I for one didn't intend to come across as critical. I watched the events unfold first-hand and offered some suggestions based on what I saw. I for one would love to be involved and volunteer/be part of the solution. Hopefully there are many more who feel the same way. Dave and his team and all of the volunteers have done a phenomenal job. The logistics involved in putting on an event like this must be almost unimaginable. As it continues to grow and evolve, new challenges will arise, and new solutions will be needed. I will gladly throw my hat in the ring to help however I can. I'm sure there are many others who feel the same. Let's do it!

 

[RockWolf]

I was spectating there all morning and watched the first guys make quick work of it. I saw the the situation change throughout the morning and saw a few obvious causes.

1. Drivers not knowing how to drive. Something that the top guys understand that the trail plugs didnt is that if your car was built more for speed, there was no other way to get through jackhammer other then momentum. Some of those drivers were hating their long wheelbase and trailing arms. Those guys needed to hit it hard and risk breakage like if they were hitting back door. Only the fast guys did.

2. No passing. The first guys through had no problems giving cars in front of them their shot. And then looking for lines around them if they got stuck. As the day went on it didnt even seem like a race. Everyone was just waiting their turn. Not sure if it was a drivers decision or hammerking decision to not allow passing.

3. The course workers. The volunteers giving orders to the drivers made problem 1 and 2 that much worse. The cars that needed momentum to get through it no longer could because everyone was winched together. They also moved rocks around and forced everyone on the same line. There were 3 lines at the beginning of the day and only one by the time everyone was hooked to each other.

The solution seems simple enough to me. Keep things as is and let the drivers and their cars adapt. Mark the course, set up winch points, and let the drivers and co drivers figure out the rest. No outside help unless its a recovery or some immediate danger. The only thing the teams can complain about this year was the staff controlling the situation and forcing them to lose time. If you keep the staff out of it, the teams have no one to blame or be mad at but themselves. I dont think they should keep making it easier everytime there is a problem. In a few years everyone will be in trophy trucks with winches

 

[youngguns4x4]

Guys simlar shit happens at baja. Ive witnessed and been stuck in a bottleneck. Fortunately was in an ultra 4 car and got around then pulled the guy up blocking everyone. Not many guys were helping. You really have to help out your competitors so you can get through. Its part of this style of racing. If you dont want bottle necks go race on asphalt

 

[Arya Ebrahimi]

A reliable CTIS would go a long way towards eliminating these rock issues. Some cars just won't hook up at race tire pressure, no matter how much throttle you apply.

The exact same thing crossed my mind when I was watching the live coverage. Hell, it might be a part of pit strategy in the future to air down for certain legs of the race and then have your pit crew ready to air you back up for others.

 

[VooDoo]

My thought is this after attending my first KOH. I watched the emc race and the main race on jack. Other than the first few racers that came through on Friday the emc guys, especially the 4600 drivers had much better driving and winching skills than a lot of the big boys. The voodoo Toyota powered buggy was the only one I saw clear jack with no winching other than 6 or 7 4400 guys on Friday.
Another thought is maybe they should make the course shorter in mileage.
Seems like a huge amount of ground to cover in the allowed amount of time.

This immediately sets up most of the field up for failure.

How can this be good when you tell all your sponsors you weren't able to finish and therefore you can't pimp any of there products at the finish line.

I would love to hear the racers thoughts on this cuz what the hell do I know?

The right line was very doable. EMC cars were doing it on 37's. Watched a few cars walk right up it.

:smokin::grinpimp:

 

[mudtruck44]

The EMC guys had minimal issues with Jack. I never got a chance to pre-run, but I heard many times how bad it was going to be. I watched the EMC race on the Jumbotron for about 30 seconds and thought "looks like you could drive around everyone on the right". Friday I drove around everyone on the right but had to winch the last 10 feet because there was a Toyota truck parked in the way. ��

In my opinion, it seemed like the racers failed the course, not the other way around. If the teams worked together there wouldn't have been an issue. Not to mention, the majority of U4 drivers are just smashing their cars through the trails. When they get to a spot the can't, situations like this happen.

 

[Bush65]

A reliable CTIS would go a long way towards eliminating these rock issues. Some cars just won't hook up at race tire pressure, no matter how much throttle you apply. And yes the rear co-dogs need to work together to get the front guys through.

The Aussie 679 car with IFS & IRS and portals had CTIS.

 

[K5runner@hotmail.com]

I was in the back up. It was 2.5 hrs for us. We pulled in around noon, and were out the top at 2:45 ish.

Dave was there. We were all told (personally by Dave)to Daisy Chain together. We were not allowed to go around or take the right line. That BTW we did on Wed (no Winch)....

We were put out of the race because we had to sit there.

Look at the top 3 finishers and add 2.5 hrs, they would of timed out.

Yes I should of been faster, should of qualified faster, etc....

It sucked for us. Its very disappointing to be in my shoes.

 

[Weasel]

The EMC guys had minimal issues with Jack. I never got a chance to pre-run, but I heard many times how bad it was going to be. I watched the EMC race on the Jumbotron for about 30 seconds and thought "looks like you could drive around everyone on the right". Friday I drove around everyone on the right but had to winch the last 10 feet because there was a Toyota truck parked in the way. ��

That's bad if the EMC guys were doing it.

In my opinion, it seemed like the racers failed the course, not the other way around. If the teams worked together there wouldn't have been an issue. Not to mention, the majority of U4 drivers are just smashing their cars through the trails. When they get to a spot the can't, situations like this happen.

I don't know a whole lot but that seems to be spot on.

Remember what Tracy said the last he raced and how pissed off he was when he came to the backside of a log jam in reverse, jumped ran up to the next truck and yelled "wtf are you doing sitting here to the other co-driver" ran up and started stacking rocks got the first 2 trucks unstuck and moved, ran back roosted up around the other trucks to first in line and through the trail.

 

[KYODER]

We went down Sledge with a broken axle, after dealing with other issues as well. We fixed the rig before waiting in line at Jack. We were told there is no passing. Kinda sucked. I saw what I thought was a good alternate to the right, that I have driving before without winching. Other issues is spectators were sitting basically on alternate line as well.

I saw time after time all day both driver and codriver sitting waiting for help. Kinda sad.

 

[pcoplin]

I watched for a couple hours at Jack on Friday. I watched volunteers tell racers not to pass, and would not let them use the right line. A couple got through, but there were spectators and volunteers in the way. I could have drove right line in my Jeep. Bad mistake not letting them run it.

 

[mudtruck44]

When I was on Jack, the Blue Torch single seat driver was beating on his car like he was trying to break it. Eventually, Josh England came from a car well back in line and hooked up his winch. It doesn't make sense to let a guy beat on his car like that rather than assisting. If he breaks you may be waiting an extra 20-30 minutes to get his disabled car out. Maybe people need to start carrying ramps like the winch challenge trucks.

 

[biffgnar]

Look at the top 3 finishers and add 2.5 hrs, they would of timed out.

Wasn't the cutoff 14 hours? Looks like the top 8 could have all had 2.5 hours added to their time and still made the cutoff.

That being said they ran hard in qualifying to start up front and ran hard in the desert to get ahead of log jams like that. Isn't that what they are supposed to do?

 

[biffgnar]

Maybe people need to start carrying ramps like the winch challenge trucks.

Didn't John and Gerald carry ramps on their 4500 car in EMC last year? Don't think they actually used them though. Not sure if they were on there this year.

 

[atvobsession]

Rigs being built for desert speed and not for rocks. Even the guys I saw trying to approach the bottle neck were flailing around in the rocks before they got to the actual obstacle.

That's part of it....rigs built for going fast in the desert and not enough "rock" to the build is one reason....the other is drivers. I'm a rock guy, and I see so many bad lines...and the solution is the hammer the skinny pedal. I can't even tell you how many guys hit the hard section on Chocolate Thunder on the left side, failed...and moved far right. I saw that line right off....and our car walked right up on Thursday.

Randy has won 2 of the last 3 KOH's because 1) his Bomber chassis can CRAWL...2) He KNOWS rock lines!! I don't know speeds for sure...but I'm pretty certain in whoops....other guys go faster.

 

[atvobsession]

In my opinion, it seemed like the racers failed the course, not the other way around. If the teams worked together there wouldn't have been an issue. Not to mention, the majority of U4 drivers are just smashing their cars through the trails. When they get to a spot the can't, situations like this happen.

Exactly Jesse. More and more rigs setup to go fast, not to rock crawl....more drivers less skilled in rocks...too much reliance on the skinny pedal.....this happened before, same as Jack this year....2012, and the Chocolate Thunder gatekeeper mayhem.