Why cannot you have best of both worlds?
Rack an pinions like you say were not designed around the rocks.
A rack in pinion just a nice package with ram rack and servo attached you can separate everything out and build your own setup.

Why not use a large double ended ram, rack for feed back and adjust the power servo size until you get the feel you want.

A little more work but why not.

 

Sent you a PM.

Howe makes a nice bolt on power ram/rack if ytou want ease and simplicity. But that comes with a price.

You can roll your own solution; but it takes a little math. See here.

What did you have in mind? Buy? Build?

I think the positive feel of a rack or a hybrid ram\box setup is a plus if compared to a spool valve \ ram. (My opinion, that's all)

 

The main reason to avoid a rack is the $3000 price tag. Anything smaller than the TT racks is a waste of money for an Ultra 4.

 

Promise if I blow the Howe TT rack in the Unicorn, its getting replaced with a double ended ram.

 

Boat steering...

 

:laughing:

yea, that floated like a rock

(But it was very clever...)

 

Yes, a good rack is 3000 but, if that is absolutly the right and best way to go then. As much as I hate to spend the money I will have to make it happen. That being said If there is a way to build something that will give me the best of both worlds at a lower cost and keep it reliable even better. The biggest factors for me is reliability and doing it right the first time. I think I cut off a third of my old car about four times to make improvements. I don't want to go back down that road again lol.

 

Full hydro doesn't have to mean loose and sloppy.
Mine is super tight, but the problem with mine is the variable feel and speed.
With the engine at 4000 you can turn it as fast as your hands can move.
But if you get squirrelly and get out of it, and try to recover with the steering wheel you loose your steering speed and have to put in more manual force to turn. The ratio from steering wheel to tire and wheel movement is variable.
Don't build an ifs with full hydro.

 

This can all be easily fixed with flow/pressure control valves and the proper pump. I don't understand why more racers haven't gone away from the outrageously priced "Trophy truck" pumps and to industrial hydraulic positive displacement pumps and correct plumbing.
Sorry to get off topic.

 

My 3" Howe rack has been flawless. No seal problems and never have an issue turning in the rocks. The hi speed stability well over 120mph is worth it, and definitely feel much better in whoops at 100 with a mechanical linkage. A crash at that speed is worth the extra $ to me if you happen to lose a pump or line... We send it in once a year to be freshened up and grease it everytime out.

 

Wild West Fab has displayed a Saginaw box to a set of swingers....for their regular IFS builds. Their Pro, Ultra4 builds are all Howe Racks.

An advantage for the Saginaw box/swingers was the offset box to get a steering rod to it. I am sure it has been updated with current Pro feedback.

 

It has been updated and changed around a little. It will be at KOH this year on display. Now it can be fitted with a rack, a double ended ram, or a double ended ram + steering box all in one setup :smokin:.

One thing to also consider in the steering rack vs. ram argument is rack placement. Some of these guys are running 9"+ offsets from the rack to the tierod mounting points, so of course they are going to have problems with that much offset. Everything is not always how it seems. A ram sometimes can be mounted easier because you don't have to get the steering shaft to it, but it is also much wider and you can run into clearance issues with the upper arm.

There are also some 'uber' racks out there that no one is running yet, with larger racks sliders and wider spreads. ISDT knows what I'm talking about

 

i like the saginaw box idea. have a small draglink running to one side of a DE ram to meter the steering and create feel and run it as a hydro assist setup, then two tierods just like a normal DE ram setup. packaging would be very easy.

 

A 3" Howe rack is more than perfect. A direct link with superior power. Yes, you have to go big dog with the 3". But it also add's up the cost of everything else to do a traditional swing set. It equals about the same amount in cash and a inferior setup. Does a regular box and idler work well? Yes, of course although the extra moving parts to break. I have gone rounds with truck builders on the subject. What I have concluded is that if you want a good everyday truck run a swing set. If you want to be competitive run a HUGE RACK. Who doesn't love a nice rack anyways.

 

So I did some checking today with kartek and ORW and a Howe 3.0 setup will run $5500-$6000 with everything you need including tt pump But, you must run all there components for them to stand behind it. Gearworks 2.5 @ 1595.00 and fortin 2.5 @ $2150 says that it will do the job just fine with the parts I already have but, I'm kinda skeptical. I do like the idea of using a steering box and building a hydro assist setup. Just not sure how to make it all work how I would like with a double ended ram. It is just so wide and in the way of the upper a arms. Not sure if a single ended ram is a good option or not? I think I will give wild west a call tomorrow and see what they have to say. We started building the chassis today so I guess I will have to decide soon on what to do. Thanks for all of the input and info keep it coming.

 

I'm new to this custom IFS design stuff, been reading every post or article I can find. Kind of old dog new tricks thing. Seems there is still much to be defined but there does seem to be a focused direction, so be gentle if this idea is totally wacked. Mount the cylinder rod ends to the chassis, have the tie rods connect to the cylinder body, use some large cam followers in between the tie rods mount straps to limit cylinder rotation. 2" ID cylinder is how it's shown. Remember this is only a concept/idea.

 

I'm new to this custom IFS design stuff, been reading every post or article I can find. Kind of old dog new tricks thing. Seems there is still much to be defined but there does seem to be a focused direction, so be gentle if this idea is totally wacked. Mount the cylinder rod ends to the chassis, have the tie rods connect to the cylinder body, use some large cam followers in between the tie rods mount straps to limit cylinder rotation. 2" ID cylinder is how it's shown. Remember this is only a concept/idea.

This is kind of already being done with a steering box/slider arrangement. I would think it would be the same with a hydro setup.http://www.geiserbros.com/Fallers_F150.jpg

 

I'm perfectly happy with the trophy truck Howe rack in my car. I see no reason to downgrade to a ram.

 

In reference to the cam follower design above: It has been shown several times that ram mounting bolts break from the force of Ultra4 IFS. The latest was two 9/16 grade 10 bolts, I believe. Now the rack is keyed and 4 bolts. The bulkhead or other structures have to take it also.

Didn't someone say that IFS lets you go fast? It takes a beating.....and so does the rear, driveline, etc. It seems to sneak up on you and pretty soon you are in the Crispy, Currie/Savvy, and several others territory pretty quick.

 

That was only my preference, But I'm glad I could kick start some good threads again! Big racks= big money. Racing at the top level=big money. It's just my opinion and another way to skin a cat.

I would also use a steering box swing-set with a mini ram. ID Designs is using this design currently on their new TT's.

U4 has changed a lot since our first KOH in 09'. U4 is starting to remind me of super endurocross. It's not like the early years when we were running the BITD races (which were fun as hell) now it's short course mixed with rocks. What races in the series are you going 120 threw desert other then KOH?

 

IRS/IFS full hydraulic. It used to have a draglink and FL70 steer gear on the front, but didn't have enough force, so it was changed to full hydraulic as well. Now it has force to turn 54" tires under full side load with a huge scrub radius. Most of the design research was from high speed desert applications.

 

My question with this is how do you keep the shaft from spinning back and forth when it pushes or pulls? Even with good alignment you will have some of this. The only thing that I can think of is a heim with uhmw like spacer so there is a little movement to keep from binding. Wile also keeping it aligned. kinda like people are using mounting shocks on links rather than buying wobble stoppers.

I have that sorted. The pivots use a solid heim.. designed to mate to a clevis. It can't rotate in any but its designed axis.

After reading about rams ripping mount bolts I might add a compressing clamp around the body for insurance.

 

Another way to do swingers:

https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/395581_627176623964877_1909762904_n.jpg

This thread will also cover a few things:

A-arm steering setups?? | race-deZert

I agree with this^^^ thread. If you want near perfect geometry go with swingers. If you want ease of installation and reliability go with a rack / ram.

Anyone run a DE ram with a steering box? I would think you would have a volume restriction that would cause problems?

 

If you want near perfect geometry go with swingers. If you want ease of installation and reliability go with a rack / ram.

DanTech with the win!

Anyone headed to KOH can check out the swingset and rack set-up on the front of Farravanti's new car. There are just a few hours behind the computer to get the geometry as close to perfect as we can get.

 

So I ended up doing the gear one 2.5 power rack. I hope the it doesn't bite me in the ass. I spent a lot of time on the phone with them and psc about my pump and they both are very convenient in them working well together. I didn't realize at the time that psc sales there rack. It ended up at almost 1600 with servo. I feel like it was as a good deal if all works well. With my short time frame it just makes everything easier and faster to get done.

 

So I ended up doing the gear one 2.5 power rack.

I couldn't find the throw on that rack. I bought a Howe rack thinking it was 5.5" when it was actually 4.5". I didn't want the busy-ness of swingers so bought a longer one.

Know that when you design and build swingers, the feedback from the wheels will be multiplied by whatever ratio you may use to get steering travel. Seen.

 

Vertical swingers are good for some due to packaging, but you can't get the level of tune with verticals that you can with horizontal swingers.

 

Fab unlimited - Replacement for Chevy NBS Stock Rack & Pinion.

 

You putting that on the dirtymax?

 

lol, nope. The Dmax is retired these days. Filar and I put a good hurting on it at the last Mil. Age,Miles, Rough Miles have taken it's toll. Not to mention it can still pull a fifth wheel. Although it's steering isn't much different than that of Fab Unltd's. Just no ram assist. Ram assist probably would have saved a Steering gear and a couple pumps IMO. Less stress on the sector shaft and possibly less pressure spikes from hitting rocks at speed.

Moving onto a 1/2 ton GM chassis these days. IF it will have a swing set or a rack is undetermined. I think if you added up the hours for a shop to build swingset with Top shelf parts vs. a top shelf rack you can't be that much off of each other.

 

I wouldn't think so either, just comes down to packaging and what you are willing to compromise or sacrifice. The swingset should remain close to perfect throughout the range of travel, but racks package more easily and are easier from a design standpoint.

 

I know in the 2WD/4WD Desert scene I have seen both. Is there an Ultra4 IFS car or equivalent with a Swing set? I'd be curious to see how it's set up.

 

Faravanti Sr's

 

What's the little link in the middle do, just additional support? Seems like that'd bind kinda easy if it's not in perfect alignment/length with the other ones?

I'm in the middle of building my TTB steering right now so swingsets & mounting are interesting to me...

 

I'm not positive with out asking Rick @ Fab Unltd. I would assume with a wide centerlink, Uni balls on the Idler and Pitman pivots and the Assist cylinder on the other side of the center link. That the little link in the middle would combat the center link from rotating. I know on my setup the rotation leads to premature wear of my pitman and idler pivots.

You should check out Fatcity's TTB XJ build in the desert section.