I would just regear the rearend, aka change the R&P

 

Then I'm running 2200 RPM unloaded at 75 MPH. Its noisy compared to 1600 RPM and it burns a lot more fuel.

I swear my fuel economy went up 5% going from 265/75R16s (650 revs per mile) to 275/65/R20s (605 revs per mile). I think some of that was due to lesser rolling resistance. The truck is also quieter.

Without the splitter, the gap between OD and direct on the ZF6 is 37%. Direct to 3rd is similar. That is pretty wide for towing in the mountains or when you have to tow into a 40 MPH headwind and OD won't pull it.

I love the thought of 1600 RPM at 75 MPH or 1500 at 70. Can you say 25 MPG ? I'm in the 22-23 MPG range on long flat drives with no headwind at 68 MPH.

I'm doing over 1000 miles a month on long trips empty with this truck and will be for the next few years. It needs to be good at towing and cruising empty.

 

Sorta old, but I'd look for a "Brownie" auxillary. Put in "frontwards" you would have 2 underdrive gears, 1 direct, and one over. Put it in "backwards", and have one over, one direct and 2 overdrive gears.
I think the "real" name is Brown and Lipe.
No idea what the gear ratio's are.

 

there are a lot of different ones. i've been looking into this. anythign from 2 speeds to 4 speeds. spicer makes some too.

 

I looked at Brownie boxes a long time ago.

If I remember correctly they are really big, like several hundred pounds. I figure a 13 speeds splitter box would weigh less than 100 pounds.

The Brownies are also meant to be a true auxiliary box, like adding another range to the transmission and they shift accordingly. Whereas a 13 speed splitter is close ratio and shifts fast.

And Brownie boxes are hard to find. They weren't plentiful and they aren't made anymore.

13 speeds are very plentiful and you can still get parts for them. In fact you can buy a complete splitter as a kit, brand new.

 

Video of a guy shifting a Brownie.
YouTube - shift

 

1) That would be a Mack tri plex, NOT an aux.
2) NEVER trust a trucker wearing tennis shoes
3) NEVER trust a trucker wearing shorts
(every truck wreck we work in the summer, the driver is wearing tennies or shorts or both).

 

Yep.

 

The owner of the truck/post of the video says its a Peterbilt with a Brownie
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=619082

Apparently there is a video of the truck too if you don't believe him.

 

so you want to use the auxiliary of the 9513 with the zf? i have a complete rtoo9513. 1:1 in 7th direct, about .84:1 in 7th over, about .74:1 in 8th direct, and .62:1 in 8th over. you need an sae#2 flywheel housing and clutch housing which are both available. i don't remember what year you said you had but i have a 1st gen however i do have an sae#2 flywheel housing for a common rail available. as for shifting it can be a pita but it's also kinda fun. depends on how long your behind the wheel and where you are (may l.a. burn in hell:mad3 as far as the install it's smiler to the guys putting eaton fuller 5 and 6 speeds in to replace the 4500's and 5600's. i cut out a lot of floor and am still working on replacing it. also the tranny is meant to hang though there are a pair of 5/8" on top to support it. i haven't torn one of these trannys apart so i'm not sure how using just the auxiliary would work but i do believe that the rtoo used less overdrive in the aux due to having an overdrive in the main case. i have 4.10 gears so i've looked into a lot of things. i rev about 1700 rpm at 65 and 1900 at 75. i've heard good and bad things about brownie boxes. as for the transfercase it would be easiest to go divorced however you may be able to adapt one to it with enough machine work. i read about some guy running rockwells that used a 203 as a double but turned it around with custom adapters and some internal mods to give him a 2:1 overdrive. as for the us gear and gear vendors and what not i dont think i'd want to go that route. i've heard of people switching the top gears in a 10 speed to give them a different type of "georgia overdrive". i can start out in 4th gear if i dont drop the clutch. i have a treadle valve and pneumatic cylinder for clutch actuation but theres no feel to it. i don't know if any of this helps. i love having a 13, rarely ever use the low range on the t case, but synchros would be nice, especially on the low side. also it's noisy and the output is going to use like a 1710 u-joint. i guess theres supposed to be a flange output which is what i wanted so i could put a driveline brake on but i couldnt get it in time.

 

I think he just wants to run the OD box off the 13 speed, not the whole 13 speed.
It'll be a cool thing to see done!
Just suggested the brownie because it would be easy, if finding one was easy. I had one in a F800 Ford drill rig, but sold the whole thing for scrap before I pulled it.
Another thing about the brownie, it gives you another option or two for PTO.
There is the "standard" PTO outlet in the case, or you can put a "Power Tower" on it. You get variable speed PTO, since you shift the brownie into N and what ever gear you stick the main box in, varies how fast the PTO turns. But if room is an issue, there probably isn't room for a power tower either.
If you were doing an F-450/550 in 2wd, the brownie would be worth looking for, or if you had a medium duty tow rig, then it would be a natural.

 

Thanks for the input on the RTOO. Your comments on cutting the floor boards, the noise, shifting hassles and wanting synchros convinced me not to do an RTO 6610 or 13, though I wasn't leaning that way much anyway.

Do you have any more pictures of the transmission and/or your truck ?

How is the RTOO for pulling and running empty ? Ie does it make much of a difference versus a 4R100 or ZF6 ?

How would a Brownie shift compared to the splitter from a 9513 ? The splitter is meant to be air shifted a lot. The Brownie is meant to be lever shifted, so is it going to shift as nice when hooked up to an air cylinder ?

 

i dont regret doing it, well it would be nice to have an 18 sometimes, but having syncros would be nice when offroad. theres just not enough momentum to get to the next gear before bogging down. i suppose that your tow rig probably doesnt double as your off road rig though. the rtoo is nice for towing, it seems to shift easier when towing. i can shift my t-case into rwd low and shift into either forward or reverse granny gears for tight spaces plus i always have a low enough gear to get moving on a hill. when i was getting my cdl i drove a 379 pete with a 10 speed and it shifted like a car compared to mine. i know other people with cdl's who can barely drive it but i do ok. rtoo's have the 3rd and 4th gear positions reversed which can be confusing switching between vehicles. i have very little experience with the zf6 and 4r100 but i had a e4od. i never have had much faith in automatics and i had a hard time with the zf6, no fault of the tranny though. i have trouble driving vehicles that are still tight, i'm used to having some slop in everything i'm not sure how the brownie shifts, for example how many detents are on the shift rail(s) and if it's synchronized or not. if it's more than just the 2 then i don't know how you could set up a pneumatic cylinder. maybe you could twinstick it a 13 speed aux box isn't necessarily a bad idea, i just don't know how you could adapt it. i have pics here,

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=102090&id=660066523&l=db15bc8e56

i never really bothered with a buildup thread.

 

Quick update on using the aux section of a 9513.

I went to www.roadranger.com and searched on "9513". From the search results I downloaded several service and parts manuals.

I thought the rear section of these transmissions bolted up to the flat rear portion of the main transmission. That is not the case. The internals of the aux section appear to protrude several inches into the main case.

The aux section has 2 countershafts and handles the range and splitter shifting. The input shaft to the aux is the output shaft of the main transmission.

I think it would take quite a bit of work to build a case to house the front part of the aux and its input shaft.

I'm not sure where this leaves me.

I think I'll pull the trailer on a long trip and see how it goes before I do anything further.

 

I thought the rear section of these transmissions bolted up to the flat rear portion of the main transmission. That is not the case. The internals of the aux section appear to protrude several inches into the main case.

So you somehow thought that this bolted up on a flat portion and did not protrude into the transmission:
View attachment 520636

Given that the main portion of this picture is the picture on the 9-13 page:
View attachment 520637

:laughing:

 

If it isn't JasonMT, know it all.

I thought the top picture was an exploded view. And it is. Who knows how far it goes into the case.

The bottom transmission isn't part of the same family. The family of transmissions we are talking about are "convertibles" ie they ship as 9 speeds and can be converted to 13 speeds.

I'm giving this all more thought. One might be able to get everything inside the aux case (or close to it) if one totally removes the range gear and its associated hardware and just runs the splitter and countershaft gears.

It would take some doing to make it work, but it is possible, even if it doesn't fit in the aux case.

 

anything is possible with enough resources. i think turning a 203 around would be easier but that would be a big overdrive

 

Seems like you could build some sort of adapter that would mimic the rear of the trans it is supposed to bolt up to. It would probably have t have a support bearing, custome shaft and seal too Im sure it would get expensive, unless you had access to free or cheap machine work. I would rather see something that bolted in place of the tail housing, that the splitter would bolt to. But, it would have to have a mounting flange for the t-case in a 4wd. Or run a divorce 205. I have been looking around for this exact setup. Figure this out, so I can copy your design.

Have you ever priced the splitter from a salvage? Just wondering about what they go for.

I dont think the 203 running backward would be up to the task of heavy hauling, even if the gearing wasnt an issue.

 

Let me give it more thought. The splitter part of the aux is quite small. But it needs the countershafts and the input shaft.

I should really buy a core 9513 aux and start playing with actual parts.

 

A few more thoughts.

I don't trust the Brownies. If you look at the applications, they were generally in 3 and 5 ton trucks with 150 HP ish gas engines. I don't trust them behind a modern 350+ HP diesel engine. Maybe the larger ones would work, but still.

I also thought of regearing the counter shaft on a rto 6610. But its a large transmission to fit underneath a pickup truck.

I've also tried looking at European transmissions. Its hard to find information though. Most of them seem to aluminum cased. ZF builds 12 and 16 speed transmissions but I can't find any specs.

The big thing for me is the ratios in the top 5 gears. I'd like to see ratios of 1.20-1.0-0.8-0.72-0.65 or so.

The ZF6 is a really nice transmission. The only fault I have with it is that it has a lot of gear roll over noise if you lug the engine. I'm not using a dual mass clutch.

All I need is an OD spliter on it. It could also be automated so that it shifts via a computer and air cylinders...

 

like i said, i've heard good and bad things about the brownies. my rtoo 9513 was 950 plus shipping from goodies truck parts. it was used but inspected and the external air parts were replaced and the whole thing was cleaned up. i was pretty happy about the price for a double overdrive. i'm not sure how well the 203 would hold up going backwards, i know the guy that did it had to do some internal modifications to it. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=666202 also i think the class 8 rigs in europe use synchonized trannies. i dont really know or care what they use over there but i think i read that somewhere. i'm not sure about what flywheel housing it would take or if there would even be one available.

 

The European transmissions are generally synchronized. That is a double edge sword... easier to shift but they wear out and are expensive to fix.

I don't care about the flywheel housing. I can build an adapter for whatever I need. I built my ZF6 adapter.

I wish the rtoo9513 was smaller, lighter and quieter. I'd put one in my truck right away. I just can't fathom cutting my floorboards for a 660 pound transmission. I can totally see why some people do it though.

I am not interested in using a transfer case in reverse.

A ZF6 with a splitter would be awesome.

The quest continues.

 

I think you may do well to get the 13 in your shop and roll around on the floor with it awhile, and sleep on it, and (my favorite thinkin' spot, the crapper!).
FWIW, the brownie I had, I wouldn't be scared of it behind any CTD!
But like you noted, it wasn't dainty!

 

What model of Brownie did your truck have and what engine was in it ?

How well do you think it would shift with an air cylinder ?

Maybe I am under estimating these things.

 

I'm interested to see where this goes. I got an RTO9513 for cheap to use in my Detroit/Silverado project initially, but after getting it in my garage and seeing how big the sucker is, I ended up going with an RTO610. I still have the 9513 just sitting around. You can't even give them away and I was thinking about just scrapping it. I had never thought of using the range box for an extra overdrive. Probably more money than it's worth in the long run, however I'd like to see what happens with this.

 

If you are going to scrap it anyway, any chance you could pull the auxiliary off/apart and take a bunch of pictures ? And weigh it ?

 

yeah i got a rto9513 sitting around that i got before i found the rtoo. i dont know what to do with it. i think i might stick it into a fire engine thats got a detroit 8v-71.

 

I'm deployed for a few more months, but yeah as long as you're not in a hurry.

 

I can wait. Worst case is I'll get myself a 9513 in the mean time. Then we could work on it together.

I think this idea has legs. Its worth a closer look.

I found another thread whereby a guy had a Brownie installed in a motor home with an air cylinder for shifting. He said it was very hard, if not impossible to shift on the fly.

A splitter, on the other hand, is designed to be shifted easily and often.

 

I'm pretty sure a brownie is supposed to be able to shift on the fly, but I assume you would have to rev match, maybe that's the problem he was having.

 

i dont know how a brownie is shifted but if it's like, say, a twin stick 205 just using the rear wheel drive, i can see the problem. with the 205 if your in low you shift to neutral, double the rpm, then shift into high. just the opposite for downshifting. a brownie isn't going to be as big of a jump but an air cylinder would just try to move the shift rail from all the all in to all the way out or vice versa without pausing in neutral. maybe you could work in some sort of ratcheting system. for the sm465 they have an overdrive that bolts between the tranny and bell housing, i dont remember what vehicle your working on though. or you could use dual sm465's and really tall tires:laughing: it would be like driving a mack twin stick