[mobil1syn]

get those dual rates in the mix.

 

[-Matt-]

I'll set the rear and see how it acts. The rear springs are softer so it flexes easier in the back than the front. Might even be better for flex to. It will force some flex pressure up front for those stiffer springs, but have less body roll. And it will help for the weight from my spare tire

 

[-Matt-]

Typically where's a good place to start if I set the rear slider stops? Like 1.5" from ride height? Or what..

 

[Taco-Runner]

I set mine with in .5" of slider at ride height or less.

 

[-Matt-]

Ok good to know. Now what's even the purpose of 2 different rate springs at that point? Just to have the option for adjustments?

 

[NSW Sparky]

.5 seems close you would hit a bump and it would go to the heavy rate.

 

[Taco-Runner]

Ok good to know. Now what's even the purpose of 2 different rate springs at that point? Just to have the option for adjustments?

.5 seems close you would hit a bump and it would go to the heavy rate.

The idea behind having dual rates is to get a soft enough spring to get the ride ht you want. The stops are there to access the stiffer spring. Matt you have a 200/300 = 120lb rate. Which is a soft rate if you're driving on it the whole time. You have extra body roll because of it and would need a stiff sway bar and a ton of valving to control the bumps. But if you adjust the shock to use the main spring/lower then you jump rates and gain the advantage of what a stiffer spring also provides. Which is body control. .5" doesn't mean the wheel moves .5" and enters the main spring. It means the sliders has to move that much. Since you have two springs and two different rates they also compress at different rates. So you're closer to 1" of movement before entering the main spring. The bigger spring is better for bigger bumps while the dual rate is better for smaller bumps. In a sense it's kind of like having a spring stack that is also a flutter just like your shims. Personally I like the lower spring to be the one that controls the vehicle and the upper spring is more of a ride ht control. This way you don't need the third rate method of springing a vehicle which at full extension would mess up your rebound by not taking advantage of the spring forcing the axle back down. And the softer the lower spring the closer to the stop you want it at ride ht. so you control the vehicle. This is why guys that run stiffer rates and need 4"s of third rate never use the stops until the last bit of travel, they're rates are way to stiff to do it, they don't have enough weight to compress a stiffer spring that uses the stops. Soften the bottom rate and use the piss out of it and you'll perform better.

 

[-Matt-]

Awesome great info Brian. I'll adjust the front and rear tomorrow and report back

 

[christyle]

The idea behind having dual rates is to get a soft enough spring to get the ride ht you want. The stops are there to access the stiffer spring. Matt you have a 200/300 = 120lb rate. Which is a soft rate if you're driving on it the whole time. You have extra body roll because of it and would need a stiff sway bar and a ton of valving to control the bumps. But if you adjust the shock to use the main spring/lower then you jump rates and gain the advantage of what a stiffer spring also provides. Which is body control. .5" doesn't mean the wheel moves .5" and enters the main spring. It means the sliders has to move that much. Since you have two springs and two different rates they also compress at different rates. So you're closer to 1" of movement before entering the main spring. The bigger spring is better for bigger bumps while the dual rate is better for smaller bumps. In a sense it's kind of like having a spring stack that is also a flutter just like your shims. Personally I like the lower spring to be the one that controls the vehicle and the upper spring is more of a ride ht control. This way you don't need the third rate method of springing a vehicle which at full extension would mess up your rebound by not taking advantage of the spring forcing the axle back down. And the softer the lower spring the closer to the stop you want it at ride ht. so you control the vehicle. This is why guys that run stiffer rates and need 4"s of third rate never use the stops until the last bit of travel, they're rates are way to stiff to do it, they don't have enough weight to compress a stiffer spring that uses the stops. Soften the bottom rate and use the piss out of it and you'll perform better.

For some reason, that just blew my mind. could be the :smokin: tho....:flipoff2:

 

[-Matt-]

i set my dual rate stops 3/4" above ride height. its so much more stable with hard turns is unbelievable.

havent had time to take it off road yet, by doing this.. is it gonna significantly sacrifice the way the suspension soaks up hits or the way the truck flexes?

 

[Taco-Runner]

Big bumps no, flex depends on how you balance the front and rear with springs and dual rate position.

 

[-Matt-]

Using your theories Brian.. what about running a 300 upper and 200 lower. Obviously the lenghts would be different. But that way I could still get the ride height I want. The dual rate stop would kick in at a slower rate, and once it kicks it would still make the rig stable, but my truck would be happier with flexing a 200 rate than 300. Also it would match the rear more for flex rate.. am I out of my mind.. or on to something?

I.e. like an 18" 200 lower. And a 14" 300 upper

 

[Taco-Runner]

That would make it take longer to engage the dual rate because the top wont compress as quickly.

If I were you and I noticed a problem with how if flexs I'd adjust the dual rate stops in the rear first, for your situation. You may even want to run the dual rate on top of the slider at ride ht. to engage it quicker to help even out the front and rear.

But I also don't like triple rates. So Matt when your trucks front shocks are at full extension is the triple rate taking up any slack? And how much shock shows at ride ht.

 

[-Matt-]

That would make it take longer to engage the dual rate because the top wont compress as quickly.

If I were you and I noticed a problem with how if flexs I'd adjust the dual rate stops in the rear first, for your situation. You may even want to run the dual rate on top of the slider at ride ht. to engage it quicker to help even out the front and rear.

But I also don't like triple rates. So Matt when your trucks front shocks are at full extension is the triple rate taking up any slack? And how much shock shows at ride ht.

Im at work. Id have to pull measurements again. But I have an inch of preload on the springs when the shocks fully extended. I took the tripple rates out. I never needed them.

And ya I understand you with what I said above, that the slider would kick in not as fast with a setup like that. But do you see any problems with running a setup like that.? Is there any reason a 18" 200 wouldn't be a good spring.

I'm just curious if anyone ever runs the stiffer spring on top.

 

[Taco-Runner]

I've tried it before. Cant say I noticed anything funny. Once the dual rate stops kick in, its a none issue.

 

[Taco-Runner]

Here's a little mind fuck for everyone. Many many years ago when I was clueless with this stuff. I tried a 450/350. Which happens to be a 197lbs rate. Drove great with the stops set 2"s above the slider but wheeled like crap because I used to much dual rate and yes I used a lot of triple rate. About 5.5 inches of it. Now I run a 125/200 and it drives the same but wheels way better because the dual rate only makes it a 200lb spring on the bottom while 450/350 made it 350.

 

[FordX4-offroad]

Here's a little mind fuck for everyone. Many many years ago when I was clueless with this stuff. I tried a 450/350. Which happens to be a 197lbs rate. Drove great with the stops set 2"s above the slider but wheeled like crap because I used to much dual rate and yes I used a lot of triple rate. About 5.5 inches of it. Now I run a 125/200 and it drives the same but wheels way better because the dual rate only makes it a 200lb spring on the bottom while 450/350 made it 350.

i do not really understand what you are trying to point out.

my trucks corner weight is more than the total front weight of a taco and i use a 250 over 350 spring and it drives amazing on and offroad. i think a lot of the handling characteristics have to do with the design of the overall system as opposed to one single thing.

 

[Taco-Runner]

All im saying is the ride quality on the street was the same. But the off road performance was better. Im saying nothing of geometry.

And the spring you choose needs to reflect the weight of the vehicle. If 250/350 works for you because your trucks weighs more then its the same as a lighter truck on a softer spring.

 

[cr4wl3r]

Absolutely awesome build!

 

[-Matt-]

ya i get what your saying brian. i think the words slowly getting out to this generation of wheelers in the aspect of you dont need to run those ridiculously heavy rates any more. seems like there's a lot more knowledge out there for having better setups.

this is the reason i brought up the idea of slip flopping my rates. hopefully this makes sense... the 200/300 rates are perfect on my truck. i have about an inch of preload, no need for tripple rate.

so a 200/300 gives me a combined rate of 120, it feels perfect on my truck for the way the suspension works, but i like the idea of having my truck me more stable with the dual rate stops kicking in.

but i really dont like the idea about going from a 120 rate to instant 300. not only is it not gonna flex well. but with how my suspensions setup, i also have to compress my bumps for full flex. so now id be fighting both of those factors.

now if i simply flip flopped my rates, id have all the pros to my setup now, but instead of my setup going from 120 to 300. it would go from 120 to 200. which seems like a way better setup.

also my lower spring in the rear is a 200 rate. so if i could get a lower front that's a 200 it might make for a cool setup.

even if i went with a 250 spring top and a 250 spring on the bottom. that would still be to stiff of a bottom spring in my opinion.

hopefully this cluster fuck in my brain is making sense. i just dont know how else i would be able to pull this off without flip flopping them.