A few suggestions to talk:

How do you measure your travel?
How do you measure for new shocks?
Shock towers
Is having my brake line as tight as a piano wire a bad thing?
Leaf spring improvements
Leaf spring replacements with longer leafs
Shackle types
Shackle lengths
U bolts
Body triming

 

Shock mounts.

You don't want your shock busing binding on you. Simple fix, run them so they are pointing towards the front (or rear) of the vehicle. They will just turn around the bolt when the axle articulates.

I re-used the stock brackets from the frame, and cut to fit the axle. Simple and cheap.

 

Excellent idea for a thread, especially considering the seemingly renewed interest in leaf springs.

Not a lot of tech in this post, just some thoughts.

Is getting the most travel out of leafs beneficial? While travel is good, durability is better, and uncontrolled suspension travel can be a detriment. As we briefly touched on in another thread, ganking the spring clamps off can allow for a touch more flex, but at the cost of decreasing the life of the springs.

A properly tuned suspension may involve steps that seem counter productive to attaining maximum articulation. Bumpstops are one of these counter intuitive steps. Bumpstops will just limit my travel right? Wrong, properly setup, they will act as a fulcrum and add weight to the drooping tire. Odd but true.

We may branch into spring design a bit, more leafs do not always mean less flex, just as fewer leafs does not always mean more flex. How those leafs are put together makes a world of difference despite what us junkyard scroungers may think.

There are a ton of finer points to hit in a topic like this, but maximum flex may not be the desired goal. Flex does nothing if it can't hold together for more than a mile. We may want to shoot for a balanced, optimized design for a leaf spring suspension using all the tricks of the trade available to us in a normal workshop environment. There are some very flexy leaf spring setups here on the board, but are they setup perfectly? Not always, there is always room for improvement.

Here's hoping the JT crowd will take it and run with it, I'm looking forward to some good tech.

 

Is getting the most travel out of leafs beneficial? While travel is good, durability is better, and uncontrolled suspension travel can be a detriment. As we briefly touched on in another thread, ganking the spring clamps off can allow for a touch more flex, but at the cost of decreasing the life of the springs.

All good points, but I'd like to expand this the one I quoted.

You have to chose which is better for you: Leaf Durability or Flex. Daily Driver you'll most likely want durability, 100% trail jeep more travel. Tight budget spring clamps on, willingness to swap out spring no clamps.

As long as you stay away from gimmicks, a basic leaf usually will not cause uncontrolled travel.

 

This sounds like a great topic for a JBR thread. I know when I fabricated my front leaf suspension, alot of thought had to go into what I wanted. If my web housting allows me, I will dig into my past pics and stuff and post what I've done and why.

But I will leave with this: what is the best junkyard doner leafs to use and why?

How do you match up the valving of the shock with the corresponding up/down travel your set up to match the terrain you wheel in?

:stirthepot:

Even I am a newb here, The PBB has given me tons of info for me to use.

 

My Alcan springs give me great flex. So much that I don't "need" a 4 link. Starting with the right parts for your application always helps.

Anyone have any real world experience with leaf spring orib eyes? http://www.alcanspring.com/orbit-eye.htm

 

Remember to add that the greater the length from the axle centerline to the frame bushing of the leaf, the greater the resistance to spring wrap. It's resistance to "S-ing" increases as its length increases.

EG: 32" half length (F-150 in reverse) wraps less than a 22.5" half length (YJ) given the same leaf thickness.

My setup is 7 leaf Wagoneer up front and E-150/All-Pro 5" Toyota rear leafs in the rear. It works well, as I've posted in the threads listed by Mr. N.

"Maximum flex" is a farce on anything outside a 4WP RTI ramp, hence the reason why limit straps are now a common occurrence. The goal is to have a stable vehicle. It's better to lift a tire now and then than to never lift a tire but flip over on any side hill.

Things NOT to use:

• Double shackles
• Spring rockers
• TeraFlex shackles
• Stupidly long shackles (some desert guys run them but they are usually braced)
• Buggy leaf rear shackle mount

I prefer to run a stock-ish spring with a slight arch and avoid making them go negative in full compression.

Just make sure you:

• have the u-bolts are tight
• center pin where the threaded portion is not inside the pack (to utilize the major diameter of the bolt)
• have spring clamps
• don't let the springs go into negative arch

Here's a smart engineer explaining the leaf spring wrap thing, I didn't just pull it out of my ass:

YouTube - Video 2008 Ford Superduty - Springs

 

I prefer to run a stock-ish spring with a slight arch and avoid making them go negative in full compression.

Couple other pics. As you can see, on a 36" obstacle, the compressed spring is basically flat. Any taller and it will start to go negative.

I've read a ton of posts about this and thought this was biblical. I spent some time talking to a reputable spring manufacturer that I was going to have build me a set of springs (decided against it due to budget) who told me it's acceptable to have your springs go negative 3"-4" depending on the arch and length and that it's more important to take the "twist" out since that will fatigue a spring much faster than a few inches of negative arch. I posted this in another thread but thought it was more useful here since this may end up in the Jeep Bible if the thread doesn't turn to shit.

Anyone have any real world experience with leaf spring orbit eyes?

I'm trying to find a more cost effective way of what Alcan offers since they are $80 per eye. I plan on using sliders which will increase the twist/stress on the spring since there is no shackle to allow side to side movement, I'll need these in both eyes of the spring to be effective which doubles the cost. These are about half the price but they only make them in one size (1.495" dia., 2.75"wide shank) with 15* of movement, not sure if that is total or each way. I’m also checking into Johnny Joints to see if there are some that will fit in the springs eyes for Waggy leaves. I'll edit this post with what I find.

I posted the same question in the slider thread above but never got a response. Any input, ideas or better yet experience from the Hardcore Jeep crowd? I should have my rig on all fours by end of February and will post up then, even though it doesn't qualify as "hard core" :flipoff2:

 

What about running OEM rubber vs Poly Spring Bushings.

What are the pro's and cons on a street driven rig vs a trailered rig?
.......

I just got a set of Old Man Emu Dakar XJ springs to use for a front stretch and they recommend rubber bushings. I'm sure that's for the best ride.

I'm sure I'd get more flex with rubber, but will I be replacing them very often?

 

Here is a little write up on leaf spring sliders,

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=836831&highlight=leaf+spring+sliders

There's a fair amount of decent information in here.

 

Ok, I'll play...

I consider my setup pretty simple, but simple works. I could probably squeeze some more flex out of it at the risk of losing stability, spring longevity, etc (all the things mentioned above). I like the RE1445s in that I don't have a bunch of bastard springs mixed and matched all over. I carry one spare main leaf which weighs about 5 lbs, and it works front or rear.

I'm not sure the technical way to measure wheel travel so I simply used two known points. Top of the U-Bolt plate, to the bottom of the frame. The tallest thing I have to drive on at my house is my deck over trailer at 36", so thats what I used for the test.

Vehicle Specs:
- Full bodied YJ, 1" BL, TJ Flares
- 360/T400/D300/D44/D60/37" Tires

Suspension Specs:
- RE1445s SOA on all four corners
- Spring hangers in stock location
- Boomerang Shackles in the rear
- Center pins re-drilled +1" WB front and rear
- Traction bar with Jonny Joint
- Bilstien 5100's

And since "with out pics it didn't happen"... :flipoff2:

Sitting flat and level:

Ride height - 10"

Extended - 14.5"

Compressed - 6"

I guess that gives me 8.5" of wheel travel? (keeping in mind that I was limited by my "ramp" only being 36" high).

Couple other pics. As you can see, on a 36" obstacle, the compressed spring is basically flat. Any taller and it will start to go negative.

 

Even leaf spring suspensions will differ from person to person and rig to rig, for a good example, I daily drove my jeep for a few years with rear YJ springs front and rear and SOA. I had loosened the clamps so they were striaight up and down, I did a shackle reversal in the front, home made with a long rear shackle, all to keep my hieght down and still allow for a good spring travel.

Here is a pic of the front hanger, it's a piece of 3" square tube cut up...

The rear shackle... I used a stock front hanger welded to the top of the frame and made the shackles out of 3/8" flat stock...

In that last picture you can see the spring clamps are still in stock location, i have not heated them up yet with a torch and bent them straight...

Here you can see the clamps straightened out... I also rebuilt the leaf packs when I did this with the torch... I think if you are using any used springs, the best thing you can do is rebuild them... take them apart, clean them, paint them... and if they are supposed to have those plastic spring pads on the ends, put good ones on and then grease the ends (plastic or not), this will help the leaf's move and keep the friction to a minimum... I also cut the ends off of another main leaf and add that long flat leaf to all the packs, to help keep there shape... and this worked until I went bigger..

Now I did this all prior to building the rig for daily driving and wheeling... I was on 3/4 ton axles and 35" tires... it worked wonderfully... much flex... soft ride on the street... I loved it... the springs stayed straight and all was good.

But then I stepped up to one tons and these 38's SX's and it was just too much flex and way to soft... I had major axle wrap and the front axle actually walked out from under my rig a few times while climbing... so...

With that said, I heated up those clamps and bent them back around the springs... I also hosed clamped the very front spring packs together and duct taped them up... also welded a chain around them, all to keep them together and from walking out... it's many times better, but still unloads on steep climbs and so far has not walked out on me, but I am sure they are trying too... it still flexes enough for anything I have done at the Hammers...

In this picture you can see the passenger spring has all my clamps on it while the driver side doesn't... and you can see how the spring is sliding off to the side... another reason to clamp them in the front...

The only way to really get YOUR leaf's doing what you want, is to use your rig, and when folks take pictures and video of you, analyze it... watch others and the way their rigs are handling... then modify yours to try and get to where you want to be...

No one on here can tell you how to set up your leaves. We can tell you what we did and why... and then make your decision for yours from that, but don't think you can just put them in and be done with them... well you can and they will work to a degree... but I think most of us want our rigs to be the best or we wouldn't be modifying them to death... so be patient and you might have to take them out a few times... or at least make some changes here and there.

 

I'm building a buggy on leafs. In the rear I've built summit machine flex joints into the frame to be the frame side attach point for the rear spring shackles.

I put solid rubber bushings on the frame up front as I've read spherical bearings used in leaf springs on the front of a rig without a traction bar will cause very vague steering and generally poor handling.

As it sits the buggy is on bastard YJ lift spring packs, the shackles are 6.5" long, probably right around or a less 45* (to the spring) at ride height, and it is VERY very soft and flexy. Traction bars will be a must. Once the rest of the weight is in the chassis it should droop very well.

 

Very interested in this thread (& Who has the most Leaf spring flex??) as I am currently working on my CJ6 project.

I am planning to run XJ 2.5" leaves front & rear, but stock CJ6 frame width, SUA and stock shackle configuration (not position).

This should give me a little extra WB, but I think having the springs longer than original CJ, as well as relatively flat leaf pack will help wheel travel. But I'd be really curious to see more SUA setup ideas.

 

I am now running stock springs with stock shackels up front and custom shackels in the back. Shock hoops up front with Bilstein 5150 14" shocks. Also an anti wrap bar in the back.

I am only running a 4 bannger but axle wrap issues are still a problem. I get tons of flex out of it and if my hubs ever thaw out I'll throw it up on the rocks with a tape and pull some mesurements for yall.

This set up is very stable set up both side hilling and on road.

 

Lets have a discussion on HOW to get the most leaf spring flex.

What modifications did you do to increase suspension articulation travel?

:idea: Pictures!
If you post, please try to use a picture to show what you are talking about.
Also please limit the pics to what you are talking about!


Lets leave out Buggy leafs, double shackles, revolvers and other tricks that are a band-aids and best for the ramp.
This is Hard core, not bolt on parts core.



Well seeing as these two threads are so popular.
Who has the most Leaf spring flex??
Hardcore Jeeps with Leaf Springs

LOL thanks for this great thread !! i am very interested in this thread

 

I'm in the build process of putting 51 inch toyota leaves in the rear and 47 inch waggies up front. I'll be using all stock leaves for the testing phase and if I like the dimensions having custom packs made by a local company. I'm frenching the solid mounts into the frame and running the shackle mounts on the faces of both front and rear bumpers. Thought process is the bumper is going to stop the shackle before they invert. We shall see if I'm thinking too far outside the box or not.

 

When doing a reverse shackel do you want the eyes of the springs to be level or do you want the front to be higher than the rear. If the front was to be higher, how much higher sould it be? I'm in the process of reduing the front spring on my 51 cj3a and need some oppinions.

 

IDK if there is a rule of thumb per say, but putting one higher than the other will alter the pinion angle.

EG: You put the front eye higher, it will turn the pinion down. Not a big deal right? well, maybe not. But if you correct it by welding your perch on to correct this or use a shim you are alterig your caster angle. Which might be ok, might not. Say you use a XJ leaf up front for stretch, your pinion is already turned down to to the offset center pin of the leaf. Then you may have to cut and turn your knuckle or re-tube. Something to think about....

 

Springs are clamped at both ends. Rancho 44044's. 6" front shackles, 5" rear. Shackle angles are approx 45*. I found that keeping the clamps on helped keep from bending the main leafs, and did not hurt the travel one bit. 12" shocks in the front, 10" in the rear stock location.

 

On my cj I run stock yj springs up front, with a rubicon 1" add a leaf and half a main leaf clamped to the top to fight wrap... d60 and 38 sxs. It works pretty well, although I will say I have been running this setup for about 4 years and I have to rebuild/replace my springs about once a year. Big stuff is hard on those springs...

Also I am running a shackle reversal and had to take into account the angle of the spring as it pertains to steering, and you guys are correct, it takes some finaglin' to get it right. I am running a 6 degree shim in mine to line it up... haven't had any problems out of it thus far and i am not easy on it... with this setup I have only bent one main leaf (got hung up and was hanging the whole weight of the jeep from the driver front tire:shaking.

It flexes pretty good, enough that flex has never been the reason I couldn't make something... just so you know leaves work, but they do take a lot of maintenance/upkeep... forgot to mention that (not knowing any better) in the frame, at the rear of the front spring (shackle mount) I put in a 2.5" johnny joint, hoping for a little more flex... don't do this!! It gave me some pretty evil death wobble... I band-aided it by replacing the joint with some bushings I found online, but this winter I am cutting them out and replacing them with plain ol' yj bushings... my.02

 

forgot to mention that (not knowing any better) in the frame, at the rear of the front spring (shackle mount) i put in a 2.5" johnny joint, hoping for a little more flex... don't do this!! it gave me some pretty evil death wobble... i band-aided it by replacing the joint with some bushings i found online, but this winter i am cutting them out and replacing them with plain ol' yj bushings... my.02

I was thinking about doing this, but to start just in the rear. I was thinking about getting some of these http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Weldable-Ballistic-Joints-Bushings_c_143.html and building something like the pic below.

After reading what you said I am now having some doubts. Do you think this would be an issue in the rear?

Thanks,

~Bry

 

I'm not sure what I have to add to this thread, but recently I just built a TJ with off the shelf parts - but I did convert the rear to leaves while using a Rubicon Express long arm up front I used Rubicon YJ spring over leaves in the back - I had to add a track bar for rear axle wrap though, make a custom gas tank, move the shocks - it would have been easier to 4 link the rear but I like it this way...

Pics are below

I get asked why all the time - and it was not for suspension travel gains - I think it has less but what it does do is feel much better on steep side hills - of which I do a lot, the platform is much more stable while still giving very reasonable suspension travel. I'm not a ramp junkie but recently I had it up a ramp full air pressure and it went up the length of its wheelbase - perfectly reasonable. I've always been of the mind set that I would rather have three wheels giving me traction and one in the air - then a vehicle so twisted that all the weight of the vehicle is really only on two wheels - even if the other two are still touching the ground with massive flex they are not helping with stability and they really are not helping move you forward. As for down the road - it drives just like a Cherokee and with a slight wheel base stretch I did I would have no problems driving across country with it, it rides great. In the last dunes shot you can see the shackle at the back.

Albert V
4WD Magazine Canada
www.can4x4.com

But I am not adverse to full on 4 link either this was my other Jeep recently torn apart and being rebuilt:

 

This is turning into a great thread lets hope we can keep the bs out. Have never run anything but leaf springs and have gotten good at making them work both on road and off road with very few compromises.

A few things that I have learned and I swear by.

1. The longer and flatter the spring the better it will ride.

2. A military wrapped spring helps a lot with wrap. If your trying to do things cheap some rear cj7 springs were wrapped (I know there getting old but still I find them) rear cj springs are the same as wrangler springs so cut both sets a part and use the best parts to make 1 nice set.

3. Have seen no difference in using rubber or polly bushings but your lucky if you will get a year out of rubber

4. If you can only afford only one set of springs to be wrapped install them in the front especially if you have a shackle reversal .

5. I like using springs with the clamps that are riveted to the spring I heat the ends up and bend them straight then weld little pieces of steel to the tops kind of the best of both worlds lets the spring fan out but not to the point that it really starts hurting the springs.

6. A few things I have noticed but not had time to play with yet on my own jeep so somebody else could maybe chime in on the following with some input.

7. Somebody sells spring over springs and the spring eyes are turned opposite of a normal jeep spring "like an leaf sprung Dodge" they seem to really help with the axle wrap problem. I think the company is Rubicon express

8. High end remote reservoir shocks can help out a set of springs that are to soft.

As been said on hear already leaf springs can do a good job just like anything else what works for one my not work for somebody else but there is a lot of good info being listed on hear.

 

I respect that you are trying to keep your rig low, but it seems like your shackle can no longer "twist" thus increasing fatigue on your spring and reducing its life?

Why not french the hanger into the frame and run a shorter shackle?

 

I respect that you are trying to keep your rig low, but it seems like your shackle can no longer "twist" thus increasing fatigue on your spring and reducing its life?

Why not French the hanger into the frame and run a shorter shackle?

1. It's more work to French it in, or put it in the middle of the frame than my way.

2. A longer shackle will let the spring move more than a short one.

3. There is play in the side to side of these, it's on a YJ frame and there is about 1/4" gap on both sides. I have had this since 2002 and the springs are also that old. Still going strong.

The shackles actually sit back quite a bit more with all the weight in it, if I remember, I'll snap another pic.

 

Sorry dude, I had to.......:flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2:

 

Get off my safety chain... it's there incase my hose clamps and duct tape let loose... :flipoff2:

 

Quote: 7 Somebody sells spring over springs and the spring eyes are turned opposite of a normal jeep spring "like an leaf sprung Dodge" they seem to really help with the axle wrap problem .I think the company is Rubicon express

These are what I used in my TJ out back for a couple reasons. One I was trying to not get excessive lift. A typical spring over on a Dana 60 YJ nets 7 inches of lift. the Rubicon Express spring over leafs are a 1.5 inch lift but with inverted eye's. I also used the offset spring mounting plates as I heard off set springs like those in a Cherokee wrap less. Up front I used Rubicon Express typical TJ long arm 4.5 inch coils with ACOS adjusters so I could level the Jeep where ever the rear leafs were happy. I also cut out the wheel wells in the rear and lifted the fenders (cut hood) in the front. I've got about 2-1/2-3 inches dial up on the front so it looks like about 7 inches out back.

Also due to the reverse wrap on the leafs I had to remove the cross pin in the XJ boomerang shackles otherwise the springs would have bound on the pin under compression.

I had more axle wrap in the rear than in my old under sprung CJ a few years back - so still had to add a track bar and it made a huge difference in how the Jeep hooked up. I also have a rear Currie sway bar - as I said all those side hills we run, and the sway bars do limit a bit of flex but still 1000 on a ramp so no big deal.
Al V

www.can4x4.com

 

Not flex tech, but to keep my rig low I frenched my front leafs using Datin Fab's boxes for ease and beef. I'm going full hydro but I was toying around with the idea of cross-over steering.





In the last pic you can see the old homebrew SRS

Shackle mount is also frenched, although im tossing around the idea of running timmay's sliders....